Hit send too soon, see below ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joan Touzet" <woh...@apache.org> > To: dev@couchdb.apache.org > Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 10:39:01 PM > Subject: Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create > des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list) > > Hey there. > > One thing we need to consider, Michelle: > > The Bylaws for CouchDB and the Apache community guidelines state > that all official *decisions* for the project must be reached on > an official mailing list - not a Slack instance or IRC or an in- > person meeting. We've (the PMC have) fought with this for > years, and in the end we've always come to the conclusion that > using
a mailing list gives us exactly what you said would be good: a permanent record of the choices made, a way to ensure everyone can participate (everyone has access to Email, but not necessarily to IRC or Slack, and definitely not being somewhere in person), and a simple format for proposals that everyone can agree upon. It's also a push-not-pull format, which ensures everyone who wants to be involved, can be. > > So in the spirit of Yes And: Please use anything and everything > you want to help inform the discussion and get creative juices > flowing. But also please create the design@ mailing list and use > it to make official decisions for the project when it comes time > to make [PROPOSAL] and [VOTE] threads. > > Thanks, > Joan > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michelle Phung" <michel...@apache.org> > > To: dev@couchdb.apache.org > > Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 10:46:58 AM > > Subject: Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create > > des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list) > > > > Hello! > > > > I woke up today, with the first thing on my todo list: submit a > > ticket to create a design@ML account. (Sry Kxepal!) > > > > But then, I did not expect all the responses :) > > > > It is a pleasant surprise for one of my proposal to generate so > > many > > emails. > > It means that the community is *active*, and that people are > > passionate and feel empowered enough to have an opinion to make it > > a > > better place. And good ideas are always welcome remember? > > > > I really like that everyone is welcome to voice their opinions and > > thoughts on the mailing list. > > No one is a mind reader. But reading gives us a secret power to > > reading thoughts. > > > > The mailing list gives me a searchable, and easy way to keep up > > with > > everything, it is nearly real-time, > > but can also work async, and it also gives people the chance to > > formulate their thoughts a bit better than IRC. > > > > I thought that a design@ML would be best for this, > > > > HOWEVER, now after reading the discussion, I have changed my mind, > > and now believe that that hosting design discussions for designers > > would be better on a platform like medium.com, or at least > > someplace > > where we can host screenshots of our ideas. > > > > That is a good idea! I am going to submit a proposal to do that > > instead of the mailing list idea. > > > > It will *SHOW* we are really trying to make the community a welcome > > place for designers, > > in their own language, without the overhead of a ML. > > > > Lets move our platform-for-design-for-CouchDB discussion stuff > > there. > > > > The other stuff: > > - You guys are arguing over what will make the CouchDB community > > better, the MOST. This is a bit silly, but makes me smile, and my > > heart swell with pride and happiness that everyone is on-board and > > trying making this better. > > - All of this is hard to do. > > - I think everyone is doing a good job. > > > > Michelle > > > > PS. ermouth: I am sorry Cloudant broke somethings of yours. We were > > trying to make things safer. We did not mean to intentionally break > > anything. > > > > > > > On Sep 14, 2015, at 9:22 AM, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other > > >> that we have the best of the project in mind > > > > > > If @kxepal says there is no activity in www@ – he is right. Facts > > > are > > > stubborn things. If he predicts there will be no users in design@ > > > with > > > current approach – he is right. > > > > > > I can‘t imagine @kxepal don‘t trust you, or Robert, or Michelle. > > > Surely, he > > > trust. He just pointing out real problems, and this is absolutely > > > ortogonal > > > to trust. > > > > > > Not everyone pointing out a problem can immidiately propose a > > > solution. > > > Issue fixing starts from bug itself, not from patch. And I can‘t > > > imagine, > > > how you can start bug report with ‘Yes, and...’. There is nothing > > > barbarian > > > in ‘It won‘t work in this way’ or ‘But how about this?’. > > > > > >> That’s the kind of stuff that makes we very very tired > > >> participating here > > > > > > Sorry, but just repeating your own words: ‘If that makes you want > > > to > > > unsubscribe, farewell’. Writing it not to prick you, but to point > > > out, that > > > if you issue rules about friendliness, you better obey them by > > > yourself > > > first. > > > > > >> [Alexnder Shorin] What really hurts conversations is > > >> false-positive > > > feedback, when you > > >> have to lie people and lie to yourself about foreign ideas. > > > > > > Absolutely. +1000. > > > > > > ermouth > > > > > > 2015-09-14 15:49 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > > > > > >> > > >>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> I’m suggesting a way how we can adopt a proven way > > >>>> If that makes you want to unsubscribe, farewell. > > >>> > > >>> That is exactly what I called iron ordnung. Extreme > > >>> unfriendliness is > > >> only > > >>> allowed for your here, Jan. The one thing I fear now is that > > >>> people are > > >>> afraid to say ‘but’, or take a contrarian position in general. > > >>> How can we > > >>> avoid that? > > >> > > >> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that > > >> we have > > >> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem > > >> disagreeing > > >> with each other. > > >> > > >> If you come at this is discussion from “if this happens, I’ll > > >> leave the > > >> project”, then you probably don’t trust me to make good > > >> suggestions about > > >> our culture. How can I improve that? > > >> > > >> > > >>> Without phrases ‘You don‘t like it? Farewell’, surely. > > >> > > >> I’m sorry for the harsh tone, but I’m also really fed up with > > >> lazy > > >> excuses > > >> of why we shouldn’t be a better community, and I especially > > >> called > > >> this out > > >> in my original message, and now we already have a number of > > >> messages on > > >> this thread that have nothing to do with the actual issue. > > >> That’s > > >> the kind > > >> of stuff that makes we very very tired participating here. > > >> > > >> Best > > >> Jan > > >> -- > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> > > >>> ermouth > > >>> > > >>> 2015-09-14 15:26 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > > >>> > > >>>> Of course, this could have gone this way: > > >>>> > > >>>> “That’s an interesting approach, is there more literature on > > >>>> how > > >>>> and why > > >>>> this is supposed to work?” > > >>>> “Here’s a bunch of links: …” > > >>>> “Gotcha, the one thing I fear now is that people are afraid to > > >>>> say > > >> ‘but’, > > >>>> or take a contrarian position in general. How can we avoid > > >>>> that?” > > >>>> “I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, > > >>>> that we > > >> have > > >>>> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem > > >>>> disagreeing > > >>>> with each other.” > > >>>> > > >>>> But then again, that would be a sign of the method working… > > >>>> > > >>>> Best > > >>>> Jan > > >>>> -- > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:15, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Well, next good step is to write it in CoC. Something like > > >>>>> “Starting > > >> post > > >>>>> with ‘But’ is unwelcomed here’. You surely attract tons of > > >>>>> contributors > > >>>>> with this. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> As for me the only desire after reading this is not to > > >>>>> subscribe, but > > >> to > > >>>>> unsubscribe. Imposed iron ordnung is surely far more > > >>>>> uncomfortable, > > >> then > > >>>>> posts, starting with ‘but‘. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Also I see this policy just leave important questions > > >>>>> undiscussed – > > >>>> nobody > > >>>>> dare to say ‘but’. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ermouth > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 2015-09-14 13:52 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 12:08, Alexander Shorin > > >>>>>>> <kxe...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Hi Jan > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jan Lehnardt > > >>>>>>> <j...@apache.org> > > >> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> We agreed on a “Yes and…”-style of feedback, and it looks > > >>>>>>>> like that > > >> we > > >>>>>>>> are defaulting to a “But…”-style feedback. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Could you explain what are "Yes and..." and "But..." > > >>>>>>> feedback > > >>>>>>> styles > > >>>>>>> and how they are different? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Sure, I had hoped that just mentioning this recalls our > > >>>>>> previous > > >>>>>> discussions. Here’s an example (sorry Michelle for picking > > >>>>>> on > > >>>>>> your > > >>>> example > > >>>>>> here, but it was freshest in my mind. In general, I don’t > > >>>>>> mean > > >>>>>> to > > >>>> re-play > > >>>>>> this as it happened on dev@, and I don’t want to single out > > >>>>>> anyone in > > >>>>>> particular, so I changed things a little): > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> “But…”-style: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> “That’s a bad idea, we already have www@ and nobody uses > > >>>>>> that.” > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> “…” > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> <after a few of these, the person with the original > > >>>>>> suggestion > > >>>>>> leaves > > >>>> the > > >>>>>> project> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> “Yes, and…”-style: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> “That’s an interesting idea: safe spaces are important! We > > >>>>>> still have > > >>>> the > > >>>>>> somewhat dormant (which is a different discussion) www@ > > >>>>>> mailing list > > >>>> for > > >>>>>> website stuff, have you considered repurposing this?” > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> “Ah, good call, maybe that works, but I feel www@ isn’t as > > >>>>>> inviting a > > >>>>>> name as design@ is.” > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> “I can understand that. If we go down that path, what would > > >>>>>> be > > >>>>>> even > > >> more > > >>>>>> inviting than a design@ mailing list? I can imagine that our > > >>>>>> mailing > > >>>> list > > >>>>>> system is not very approachable for designers to begin with, > > >>>>>> maybe we > > >>>>>> should look at a Discourse instance or a Slack channel?“ > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> <fruitful conversation continues> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * * * > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> If your read this and thing “golly, ‘But…’-style is a lot > > >>>>>> more > > >>>> efficient, > > >>>>>> we don’t have a lot of people contributing in the first > > >>>>>> place, > > >>>>>> so > > >>>> cutting > > >>>>>> these discussions short is brilliant”, just know that our #1 > > >>>>>> purpose > > >> as > > >>>> a > > >>>>>> project must be to attract more contributors. Having more > > >>>>>> contributors > > >>>> is > > >>>>>> the #1 thing that makes sure CouchDB is a long-term success. > > >>>>>> It makes > > >>>> sure > > >>>>>> that individuals don’t burn out, it helps with more diverse > > >>>>>> ideas > > >> making > > >>>>>> the project better, it helps get us more stuff done overall. > > >> Long-term, > > >>>> it > > >>>>>> doesn’t matter if 2.0 is delayed by a couple of more weeks, > > >>>>>> but it > > >> does > > >>>>>> matter if the people who help shipping 2.0 leave the project > > >>>>>> right > > >>>> after, > > >>>>>> because it was such a burden to do that they lost interest > > >>>>>> or > > >>>>>> simply > > >>>> burned > > >>>>>> out. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> * * * > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Best > > >>>>>> Jan > > >>>>>> -- > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>> ,,,^..^,,, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -- > > >>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > > >>>>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > > >>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > > >> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > > >> > > >> > > > > >
