> I am sorry Cloudant broke somethings of yours. We were trying to make things safer. We did not mean to intentionally break anything.
Thank you, Michelle, it‘s all quiet obvious. The problem is not in bug itself, it‘s not so severe. Problem is in support, that said ‘We know about the bug, but can not say, when we‘ll fix it’. What‘s the value of in-situ support, if customer have to banter on CSRF logo at twitter for having bugs really fixed? ermouth 2015-09-14 17:46 GMT+03:00 Michelle Phung <michel...@apache.org>: > Hello! > > I woke up today, with the first thing on my todo list: submit a ticket to > create a design@ML account. (Sry Kxepal!) > > But then, I did not expect all the responses :) > > It is a pleasant surprise for one of my proposal to generate so many > emails. > It means that the community is *active*, and that people are passionate > and feel empowered enough to have an opinion to make it a better place. And > good ideas are always welcome remember? > > I really like that everyone is welcome to voice their opinions and > thoughts on the mailing list. > No one is a mind reader. But reading gives us a secret power to reading > thoughts. > > The mailing list gives me a searchable, and easy way to keep up with > everything, it is nearly real-time, > but can also work async, and it also gives people the chance to formulate > their thoughts a bit better than IRC. > > I thought that a design@ML would be best for this, > > HOWEVER, now after reading the discussion, I have changed my mind, and now > believe that that hosting design discussions for designers would be better > on a platform like medium.com, or at least someplace where we can host > screenshots of our ideas. > > That is a good idea! I am going to submit a proposal to do that instead of > the mailing list idea. > > It will *SHOW* we are really trying to make the community a welcome place > for designers, > in their own language, without the overhead of a ML. > > Lets move our platform-for-design-for-CouchDB discussion stuff there. > > The other stuff: > - You guys are arguing over what will make the CouchDB community > better, the MOST. This is a bit silly, but makes me smile, and my heart > swell with pride and happiness that everyone is on-board and trying making > this better. > - All of this is hard to do. > - I think everyone is doing a good job. > > Michelle > > PS. ermouth: I am sorry Cloudant broke somethings of yours. We were trying > to make things safer. We did not mean to intentionally break anything. > > > > On Sep 14, 2015, at 9:22 AM, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other > >> that we have the best of the project in mind > > > > If @kxepal says there is no activity in www@ – he is right. Facts are > > stubborn things. If he predicts there will be no users in design@ with > > current approach – he is right. > > > > I can‘t imagine @kxepal don‘t trust you, or Robert, or Michelle. Surely, > he > > trust. He just pointing out real problems, and this is absolutely > ortogonal > > to trust. > > > > Not everyone pointing out a problem can immidiately propose a solution. > > Issue fixing starts from bug itself, not from patch. And I can‘t imagine, > > how you can start bug report with ‘Yes, and...’. There is nothing > barbarian > > in ‘It won‘t work in this way’ or ‘But how about this?’. > > > >> That’s the kind of stuff that makes we very very tired participating > here > > > > Sorry, but just repeating your own words: ‘If that makes you want to > > unsubscribe, farewell’. Writing it not to prick you, but to point out, > that > > if you issue rules about friendliness, you better obey them by yourself > > first. > > > >> [Alexnder Shorin] What really hurts conversations is false-positive > > feedback, when you > >> have to lie people and lie to yourself about foreign ideas. > > > > Absolutely. +1000. > > > > ermouth > > > > 2015-09-14 15:49 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > > > >> > >>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I’m suggesting a way how we can adopt a proven way > >>>> If that makes you want to unsubscribe, farewell. > >>> > >>> That is exactly what I called iron ordnung. Extreme unfriendliness is > >> only > >>> allowed for your here, Jan. The one thing I fear now is that people are > >>> afraid to say ‘but’, or take a contrarian position in general. How can > we > >>> avoid that? > >> > >> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that we have > >> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem disagreeing > >> with each other. > >> > >> If you come at this is discussion from “if this happens, I’ll leave the > >> project”, then you probably don’t trust me to make good suggestions > about > >> our culture. How can I improve that? > >> > >> > >>> Without phrases ‘You don‘t like it? Farewell’, surely. > >> > >> I’m sorry for the harsh tone, but I’m also really fed up with lazy > excuses > >> of why we shouldn’t be a better community, and I especially called this > out > >> in my original message, and now we already have a number of messages on > >> this thread that have nothing to do with the actual issue. That’s the > kind > >> of stuff that makes we very very tired participating here. > >> > >> Best > >> Jan > >> -- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> ermouth > >>> > >>> 2015-09-14 15:26 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > >>> > >>>> Of course, this could have gone this way: > >>>> > >>>> “That’s an interesting approach, is there more literature on how and > why > >>>> this is supposed to work?” > >>>> “Here’s a bunch of links: …” > >>>> “Gotcha, the one thing I fear now is that people are afraid to say > >> ‘but’, > >>>> or take a contrarian position in general. How can we avoid that?” > >>>> “I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that we > >> have > >>>> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem > disagreeing > >>>> with each other.” > >>>> > >>>> But then again, that would be a sign of the method working… > >>>> > >>>> Best > >>>> Jan > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:15, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Well, next good step is to write it in CoC. Something like “Starting > >> post > >>>>> with ‘But’ is unwelcomed here’. You surely attract tons of > contributors > >>>>> with this. > >>>>> > >>>>> As for me the only desire after reading this is not to subscribe, but > >> to > >>>>> unsubscribe. Imposed iron ordnung is surely far more uncomfortable, > >> then > >>>>> posts, starting with ‘but‘. > >>>>> > >>>>> Also I see this policy just leave important questions undiscussed – > >>>> nobody > >>>>> dare to say ‘but’. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ermouth > >>>>> > >>>>> 2015-09-14 13:52 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 12:08, Alexander Shorin <kxe...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Jan > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org> > >> wrote: > >>>>>>>> We agreed on a “Yes and…”-style of feedback, and it looks like > that > >> we > >>>>>>>> are defaulting to a “But…”-style feedback. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Could you explain what are "Yes and..." and "But..." feedback > styles > >>>>>>> and how they are different? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sure, I had hoped that just mentioning this recalls our previous > >>>>>> discussions. Here’s an example (sorry Michelle for picking on your > >>>> example > >>>>>> here, but it was freshest in my mind. In general, I don’t mean to > >>>> re-play > >>>>>> this as it happened on dev@, and I don’t want to single out anyone > in > >>>>>> particular, so I changed things a little): > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “But…”-style: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “That’s a bad idea, we already have www@ and nobody uses that.” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “…” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> <after a few of these, the person with the original suggestion > leaves > >>>> the > >>>>>> project> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “Yes, and…”-style: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “That’s an interesting idea: safe spaces are important! We still > have > >>>> the > >>>>>> somewhat dormant (which is a different discussion) www@ mailing > list > >>>> for > >>>>>> website stuff, have you considered repurposing this?” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “Ah, good call, maybe that works, but I feel www@ isn’t as > inviting a > >>>>>> name as design@ is.” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “I can understand that. If we go down that path, what would be even > >> more > >>>>>> inviting than a design@ mailing list? I can imagine that our > mailing > >>>> list > >>>>>> system is not very approachable for designers to begin with, maybe > we > >>>>>> should look at a Discourse instance or a Slack channel?“ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> <fruitful conversation continues> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * * * > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If your read this and thing “golly, ‘But…’-style is a lot more > >>>> efficient, > >>>>>> we don’t have a lot of people contributing in the first place, so > >>>> cutting > >>>>>> these discussions short is brilliant”, just know that our #1 purpose > >> as > >>>> a > >>>>>> project must be to attract more contributors. Having more > contributors > >>>> is > >>>>>> the #1 thing that makes sure CouchDB is a long-term success. It > makes > >>>> sure > >>>>>> that individuals don’t burn out, it helps with more diverse ideas > >> making > >>>>>> the project better, it helps get us more stuff done overall. > >> Long-term, > >>>> it > >>>>>> doesn’t matter if 2.0 is delayed by a couple of more weeks, but it > >> does > >>>>>> matter if the people who help shipping 2.0 leave the project right > >>>> after, > >>>>>> because it was such a burden to do that they lost interest or simply > >>>> burned > >>>>>> out. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * * * > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best > >>>>>> Jan > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> ,,,^..^,,, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > >>>>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > >>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> -- > >> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > >> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > >> > >> > >
