Hey there. One thing we need to consider, Michelle:
The Bylaws for CouchDB and the Apache community guidelines state that all official *decisions* for the project must be reached on an official mailing list - not a Slack instance or IRC or an in- person meeting. We've (the PMC have) fought with this for years, and in the end we've always come to the conclusion that using So in the spirit of Yes And: Please use anything and everything you want to help inform the discussion and get creative juices flowing. But also please create the design@ mailing list and use it to make official decisions for the project when it comes time to make [PROPOSAL] and [VOTE] threads. Thanks, Joan ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michelle Phung" <michel...@apache.org> > To: dev@couchdb.apache.org > Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 10:46:58 AM > Subject: Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create > des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list) > > Hello! > > I woke up today, with the first thing on my todo list: submit a > ticket to create a design@ML account. (Sry Kxepal!) > > But then, I did not expect all the responses :) > > It is a pleasant surprise for one of my proposal to generate so many > emails. > It means that the community is *active*, and that people are > passionate and feel empowered enough to have an opinion to make it a > better place. And good ideas are always welcome remember? > > I really like that everyone is welcome to voice their opinions and > thoughts on the mailing list. > No one is a mind reader. But reading gives us a secret power to > reading thoughts. > > The mailing list gives me a searchable, and easy way to keep up with > everything, it is nearly real-time, > but can also work async, and it also gives people the chance to > formulate their thoughts a bit better than IRC. > > I thought that a design@ML would be best for this, > > HOWEVER, now after reading the discussion, I have changed my mind, > and now believe that that hosting design discussions for designers > would be better on a platform like medium.com, or at least someplace > where we can host screenshots of our ideas. > > That is a good idea! I am going to submit a proposal to do that > instead of the mailing list idea. > > It will *SHOW* we are really trying to make the community a welcome > place for designers, > in their own language, without the overhead of a ML. > > Lets move our platform-for-design-for-CouchDB discussion stuff there. > > The other stuff: > - You guys are arguing over what will make the CouchDB community > better, the MOST. This is a bit silly, but makes me smile, and my > heart swell with pride and happiness that everyone is on-board and > trying making this better. > - All of this is hard to do. > - I think everyone is doing a good job. > > Michelle > > PS. ermouth: I am sorry Cloudant broke somethings of yours. We were > trying to make things safer. We did not mean to intentionally break > anything. > > > > On Sep 14, 2015, at 9:22 AM, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other > >> that we have the best of the project in mind > > > > If @kxepal says there is no activity in www@ – he is right. Facts > > are > > stubborn things. If he predicts there will be no users in design@ > > with > > current approach – he is right. > > > > I can‘t imagine @kxepal don‘t trust you, or Robert, or Michelle. > > Surely, he > > trust. He just pointing out real problems, and this is absolutely > > ortogonal > > to trust. > > > > Not everyone pointing out a problem can immidiately propose a > > solution. > > Issue fixing starts from bug itself, not from patch. And I can‘t > > imagine, > > how you can start bug report with ‘Yes, and...’. There is nothing > > barbarian > > in ‘It won‘t work in this way’ or ‘But how about this?’. > > > >> That’s the kind of stuff that makes we very very tired > >> participating here > > > > Sorry, but just repeating your own words: ‘If that makes you want > > to > > unsubscribe, farewell’. Writing it not to prick you, but to point > > out, that > > if you issue rules about friendliness, you better obey them by > > yourself > > first. > > > >> [Alexnder Shorin] What really hurts conversations is > >> false-positive > > feedback, when you > >> have to lie people and lie to yourself about foreign ideas. > > > > Absolutely. +1000. > > > > ermouth > > > > 2015-09-14 15:49 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > > > >> > >>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> I’m suggesting a way how we can adopt a proven way > >>>> If that makes you want to unsubscribe, farewell. > >>> > >>> That is exactly what I called iron ordnung. Extreme > >>> unfriendliness is > >> only > >>> allowed for your here, Jan. The one thing I fear now is that > >>> people are > >>> afraid to say ‘but’, or take a contrarian position in general. > >>> How can we > >>> avoid that? > >> > >> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, that > >> we have > >> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem > >> disagreeing > >> with each other. > >> > >> If you come at this is discussion from “if this happens, I’ll > >> leave the > >> project”, then you probably don’t trust me to make good > >> suggestions about > >> our culture. How can I improve that? > >> > >> > >>> Without phrases ‘You don‘t like it? Farewell’, surely. > >> > >> I’m sorry for the harsh tone, but I’m also really fed up with lazy > >> excuses > >> of why we shouldn’t be a better community, and I especially called > >> this out > >> in my original message, and now we already have a number of > >> messages on > >> this thread that have nothing to do with the actual issue. That’s > >> the kind > >> of stuff that makes we very very tired participating here. > >> > >> Best > >> Jan > >> -- > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> ermouth > >>> > >>> 2015-09-14 15:26 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > >>> > >>>> Of course, this could have gone this way: > >>>> > >>>> “That’s an interesting approach, is there more literature on how > >>>> and why > >>>> this is supposed to work?” > >>>> “Here’s a bunch of links: …” > >>>> “Gotcha, the one thing I fear now is that people are afraid to > >>>> say > >> ‘but’, > >>>> or take a contrarian position in general. How can we avoid > >>>> that?” > >>>> “I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other, > >>>> that we > >> have > >>>> the best of the project in mind, we shouldn’t have a problem > >>>> disagreeing > >>>> with each other.” > >>>> > >>>> But then again, that would be a sign of the method working… > >>>> > >>>> Best > >>>> Jan > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:15, ermouth <ermo...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Well, next good step is to write it in CoC. Something like > >>>>> “Starting > >> post > >>>>> with ‘But’ is unwelcomed here’. You surely attract tons of > >>>>> contributors > >>>>> with this. > >>>>> > >>>>> As for me the only desire after reading this is not to > >>>>> subscribe, but > >> to > >>>>> unsubscribe. Imposed iron ordnung is surely far more > >>>>> uncomfortable, > >> then > >>>>> posts, starting with ‘but‘. > >>>>> > >>>>> Also I see this policy just leave important questions > >>>>> undiscussed – > >>>> nobody > >>>>> dare to say ‘but’. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ermouth > >>>>> > >>>>> 2015-09-14 13:52 GMT+03:00 Jan Lehnardt <j...@apache.org>: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 14 Sep 2015, at 12:08, Alexander Shorin <kxe...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Jan > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jan Lehnardt > >>>>>>> <j...@apache.org> > >> wrote: > >>>>>>>> We agreed on a “Yes and…”-style of feedback, and it looks > >>>>>>>> like that > >> we > >>>>>>>> are defaulting to a “But…”-style feedback. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Could you explain what are "Yes and..." and "But..." feedback > >>>>>>> styles > >>>>>>> and how they are different? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sure, I had hoped that just mentioning this recalls our > >>>>>> previous > >>>>>> discussions. Here’s an example (sorry Michelle for picking on > >>>>>> your > >>>> example > >>>>>> here, but it was freshest in my mind. In general, I don’t mean > >>>>>> to > >>>> re-play > >>>>>> this as it happened on dev@, and I don’t want to single out > >>>>>> anyone in > >>>>>> particular, so I changed things a little): > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “But…”-style: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “That’s a bad idea, we already have www@ and nobody uses > >>>>>> that.” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “…” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> <after a few of these, the person with the original suggestion > >>>>>> leaves > >>>> the > >>>>>> project> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “Yes, and…”-style: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “Hey, let’s create a design@ mailing list for designers.” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “That’s an interesting idea: safe spaces are important! We > >>>>>> still have > >>>> the > >>>>>> somewhat dormant (which is a different discussion) www@ > >>>>>> mailing list > >>>> for > >>>>>> website stuff, have you considered repurposing this?” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “Ah, good call, maybe that works, but I feel www@ isn’t as > >>>>>> inviting a > >>>>>> name as design@ is.” > >>>>>> > >>>>>> “I can understand that. If we go down that path, what would be > >>>>>> even > >> more > >>>>>> inviting than a design@ mailing list? I can imagine that our > >>>>>> mailing > >>>> list > >>>>>> system is not very approachable for designers to begin with, > >>>>>> maybe we > >>>>>> should look at a Discourse instance or a Slack channel?“ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> <fruitful conversation continues> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * * * > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If your read this and thing “golly, ‘But…’-style is a lot more > >>>> efficient, > >>>>>> we don’t have a lot of people contributing in the first place, > >>>>>> so > >>>> cutting > >>>>>> these discussions short is brilliant”, just know that our #1 > >>>>>> purpose > >> as > >>>> a > >>>>>> project must be to attract more contributors. Having more > >>>>>> contributors > >>>> is > >>>>>> the #1 thing that makes sure CouchDB is a long-term success. > >>>>>> It makes > >>>> sure > >>>>>> that individuals don’t burn out, it helps with more diverse > >>>>>> ideas > >> making > >>>>>> the project better, it helps get us more stuff done overall. > >> Long-term, > >>>> it > >>>>>> doesn’t matter if 2.0 is delayed by a couple of more weeks, > >>>>>> but it > >> does > >>>>>> matter if the people who help shipping 2.0 leave the project > >>>>>> right > >>>> after, > >>>>>> because it was such a burden to do that they lost interest or > >>>>>> simply > >>>> burned > >>>>>> out. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * * * > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best > >>>>>> Jan > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> ,,,^..^,,, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > >>>>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > >>>> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> -- > >> Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > >> http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > >> > >> > >
