+1 Since last Oct, Eagle has grown a lot in all aspects described in Apache Project Maturity Model. It also accepts 4+ new committers and multiple other organizations also actively participate in the new feature development.
Best Regards, Qingwen Zhao | 赵晴雯 2016-10-18 11:53 GMT+08:00 Jilin <ji...@apache.org>: > +1 > > Eagle have a great process during this year. And it's also important to the > Hadoop ecosphere. > - Committer well follow the jira & PR process. > - Release the stable version. > - Keep updating the project. > > I think it's time for graduation. > > 2016-10-18 11:34 GMT+08:00 Hao Chen <h...@apache.org>: > > > +1 > > > > Very glad to hear that Eagle is infinitely closing to graduate at a > > top-level project since entering incubator at Oct 26th, 2016. > > > > In the past one year, the eagle community has always keep learning, > growing > > and practicing apache way every where and every day: > > > > - Meritocracy > > - Peer to Peer > > - Consensus decision making > > - Open, online communication > > - Responsible oversight > > > > Until now (10/26/2015 ~ 10/18/2016), eagle community has grown very fast > in > > features, code quality, community, consensus building etc. > > > > - Reached a very high maturity level: https://cwiki.apache.org/ > > confluence/display/EAG/Eagle+Podling+Maturity+Assessment > > <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/EAG/Eagle+ > > Podling+Maturity+Assessment> > > - Added *4+* new committers and *20+* contributors from different > > organizations around the world side > > - Successfully released *2* major versions and some minor versions, > > resolved *632+* jira tickets and *577+* pull requests. > > - *5+* public originations (e.g. eBay, Paypal, Yihaodian, Dataguise, > > etc.) are using or adopting eagle to monitor their hadoop clusters. > > - Shared eagle and apache way in *10+* tech conferences in* 8+ > > *different > > cities around the world (e.g. Hadoop Summit, Hadoop Stratus, QCon, > etc.) > > > > - Hao > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Michael Wu <m...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > +1 > > > > > > - 2 releases have been made and committers have summed lots of > > experience > > > of the releasing process. > > > - More and more contributions are received from the community. > > > - JIRA tickets are all with detailed descriptions. > > > - PRs follow a good way of collaboration. > > > - The project is being established in the industry. > > > - Responses are made timely to requesters. > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Liangfei.Su <suliang...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > Eagle Maturity Assessment clear listed and completed. > > > > JIRA with clear comments. > > > > PRs follow the convention that point to given JIRA by apache naming. > > This > > > > keeps clear commit history and friendly comments. > > > > Very happy to see more contributors other than originators to join > in. > > > > Documentation, these are continuing improved to help community easier > > to > > > > involve in. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ralph > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 8:16 PM, Jinhu Wu <jinhu.wu....@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Vote +1. > > > > > > > > > > There are more and more contributors and they are making great > > > > > contributions to Apache Eagle. > > > > > Eagle codes are more stable and documents are more helpful to use > > eagle > > > > > system. > > > > > > > > > > Besides, Eagle team are working with other developers in other > > > > corporations > > > > > to discuss some features and optimizations to make eagle more > > powerful. > > > > > > > > > > I am also happy to become an Eagle committer and hope Eagle will be > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Jinhu > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 5:29 AM, Da Zhou <daveloperz...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Vote +1. > > > > > > "Eagle Maturity Assessment" looks good to me. Great process has > > been > > > > > made > > > > > > since last discussion: > > > > > > > > > > > > - Lots of new features have been introduced, now Apache Eagle has > > > > become > > > > > > more powerful and user-friendly.(eg, Application Management > > through > > > > > Eagle > > > > > > UI.) > > > > > > - Also many fixes have been checked in, which makes Eagle more > > stable > > > > and > > > > > > robust. > > > > > > - Community is getting more active, we can tell this based on > daily > > > > > > discussion happened in the emails. > > > > > > - Apache Eagle is getting more attention by different > corporations > > > and > > > > > > organizations, their cooperation has been reported online (eg, > > Yahoo > > > > > News) > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Da > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Edward Zhang < > > > yonzhang2...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eagle Community, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's been more than 2 months and a lot have been improved since > > we > > > > last > > > > > > > time discussed Eagle graduation. Here I want to suggest we > > restart > > > > > > > discussion of Eagle graduation. Please share your comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some documents and data are as follows: > > > > > > > 1. Maturity assessment, > > > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/EAG/Eagle+ > > > > > > > Podling+Maturity+Assessment > > > > > > > 2. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/EAG/ > Documentation > > > > > > > 3. Four new committers were added since incubation > > > > > > > 4. Two releases are made > > > > > > > 5. >600 Jira tickets, > > > > > > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/EAGLE-614?jql= > > > > > > project%20%3D%20EAGLE > > > > > > > 6. ~500 pull requests. > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-eagle/pulls?utf8=% > > > > > E2%9C%93&q=is%3Apr > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > Edward > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Ge, Jing <ji...@ebay.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jijun, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your nice feedback and excellent contribution. We > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > > > Jing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/30/16, 8:43 PM, "Tang Jijun(上海_技术部_数据平台_唐觊隽)" < > > > > > tangji...@yhd.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great work! Great advances have been made for Apache > Eagle. > > > > > > > > I think Apache Eagle will became a great project for > > > community > > > > > with > > > > > > > > these improvement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Wishes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 唐觊隽 > > > > > > > > Jr. Engineer , Architecture - Fundation, Tech Dept > > > > > > > > Floor 4, 295 ZUCHONGZHI RD, Zhangjiang, Shanghai (201203) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----邮件原件----- > > > > > > > > 发件人: Ge, Jing [mailto:ji...@ebay.com] > > > > > > > > 发送时间: 2016年9月30日 19:50 > > > > > > > > 收件人: dev@eagle.incubator.apache.org; Tang > > > > Jijun(上海_技术部_数据平台_唐觊隽) > > > > > > > > 主题: Re: [DISCUSS] Is Eagle ready to graduate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jijun, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for pointing out where we can improve ourselves. > We > > > have > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > working on that since we got your email. Now: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. We have CI server which will make sure the code will > be > > > > stable > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > build will be successful. > > > > > > > > 2. We have more than 430 Unit tests. > > > > > > > > 3. We have published fundamental documentation to let > user > > > and > > > > > > > > developer understand Eagle and will continue working on them > a. > > > > > > > Development > > > > > > > > Guide https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/EAG/ > > > > > > Development+Guide > > > > > > > > b. Product features introduction > https://cwiki.apache.org/ > > > > > > > > confluence/display/EAG/Development+Guide > > > > > > > > c. More information w.r.t. roadmap or technical design, > > etc. > > > > can > > > > > be > > > > > > > > found at https://cwiki.apache.org/ > confluence/display/EAG/Eagle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of documentation, many thanks for your > > contribution > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Alert Engine on Spark Streaming https://cwiki.apache.org/ > > > > > > > > confluence/display/EAG/Alert+Engine+on+Spark+Streaming. We > > > really > > > > > > > > appreciate it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your concerns should be solved. please let us know your > > > > thoughts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > > > Jing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/1/16, 1:17 PM, "Michael Wu" <mchl....@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Security page at http://eagle.incubator.apache. > > > > > > > org/sup/index.html > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > updated with new content, please review if it > conforms > > to > > > > > what > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > expected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Michael Wu < > > > > > > mchl....@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi mentors, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will update security page content taking the > > > mentioned > > > > > > > aspects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except for the security part, is there any other > gaps > > > > that > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > feel eagle > > > > > > > > > has to fill before graduation? Please feel free to > > > point > > > > > > issues > > > > > > > > out and we > > > > > > > > > will do our best to get aligned to what graduation > > > > > requires. > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Julian Hyde < > > > > > > jh...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I did a quick survey, and it seems that most > > projects > > > do > > > > > not > > > > > > > > have a > > > > > > > > >> security team[1], which means that vulnerabilities > > > > should > > > > > be > > > > > > > > reported to > > > > > > > > >> secur...@apache.org. Of the projects that do, > Kafka > > > > > seems a > > > > > > > > good model > > > > > > > > >> to follow; its security page is simple and > clear[2]. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Julian > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> [1] http://www.apache.org/security/projects.html > < > > > > > > > > >> http://www.apache.org/security/projects.html> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> [2] http://kafka.apache.org/project-security.html > < > > > > > > > > >> http://kafka.apache.org/project-security.html> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > On Aug 23, 2016, at 6:29 PM, P. Taylor Goetz < > > > > > > > > ptgo...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > The maturity model assessment looks good to me, > > > > though I > > > > > > > > haven't delved > > > > > > > > >> deep into it. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Regarding security issues, since Eagle is a > > > > > > security-related > > > > > > > > product I > > > > > > > > >> would expect there to be a well-defined > > > process/protocol > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > ensured > > > > > > > > >> vulnerability reports were kept private until > > patched, > > > > CVE > > > > > > > > process, etc. > > > > > > > > >> Eagle hasn't had any major security issues during > > > > > > incubation, > > > > > > > > but should be > > > > > > > > >> prepared for them after graduation. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > Here [1] [2] are two great resources for > > > understanding > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > is expected > > > > > > > > >> from an ASF standpoint. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > -Taylor > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > [1] http://www.apache.org/security/ > > > > > > > > >> > [2] http://www.apache.org/ > > security/committers.html > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> >> On Aug 23, 2016, at 6:52 PM, Julian Hyde < > > > > > > jh...@apache.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> I reviewed https://cwiki.apache.org/confl > > > > > > > > >> uence/display/EAG/Eagle+ > Podling+Maturity+Assessment > > < > > > > > > > > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confl > > > uence/display/EAG/Eagle+ > > > > > Podli > > > > > > > > >> ng+Maturity+Assessment> and it looks good. > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> Only one issue. Regarding QU30: The dev list > and > > > JIRA > > > > > > > > (listed in > > > > > > > > >> http://eagle.incubator.apache.org/sup/index.html > < > > > > > > > > >> http://eagle.incubator.apache.org/sup/index.html > >) > > do > > > > not > > > > > > > seem > > > > > > > > >> appropriate places to report security issues, > > because > > > > they > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > public. Is a > > > > > > > > >> private channel needed? > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> Can some other mentors please review? > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> I think the consensus is emerging that Eagle is > > > ready > > > > > to > > > > > > > > graduate. The > > > > > > > > >> community should start taking steps to graduate, > > > > including > > > > > > > > agreeing bylaws > > > > > > > > >> (or deciding that bylaws are not necessary), > > choosing > > > an > > > > > > > > initial PMC chair, > > > > > > > > >> crafting the resolution for the Board, and > starting > > a > > > > vote > > > > > > > > thread. > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> Julian > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >>> On Jul 31, 2016, at 9:05 PM, Edward Zhang < > > > > > > > > yonzhang2...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > > > > >> >>> I have commented some assessment points and we > > can > > > > > > remove > > > > > > > > that once > > > > > > > > >> after > > > > > > > > >> >>> they are reviewed. > > > > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > > > > >> >>> Thanks > > > > > > > > >> >>> Edward > > > > > > > > >> >>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>> On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 7:09 PM, Hao Chen < > > > > > > > h...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>> Thanks Michael for preparing the "Eagle > Podling > > > > > > Maturity > > > > > > > > Assessment". > > > > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>> Eagle community, > > > > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>> could you (in particular Mentors & PPMC) > please > > > > help > > > > > > > > review and > > > > > > > > >> comment? > > > > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>> - Hao > > > > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Michael Wu > < > > > > > > > > mchl....@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> Hi guys, > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> Following the model Julian cited, we > created a > > > > wiki > > > > > > page > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> self-assessment at: > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/ > > > > > confluence/display/EAG/Eagle+ > > > > > > > > Podlin > > > > > > > > >> g+Maturity+Assessment > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> . > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> Please take a look at it and make your > > valuable > > > > > > > judgement > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > >> >>>> instructions. > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> Overall, according to the aspects that the > > model > > > > > > values > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > >> inspects, and > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> traverse the results listed in the wiki > page, > > > > > > > personally, > > > > > > > > I think > > > > > > > > >> Eagle > > > > > > > > >> >>>> is > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> approaching the point of graduation, and is > > > facing > > > > > the > > > > > > > > right way > > > > > > > > >> towards > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> it. (please correct me if i'm wrong, thanks) > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> In this assessment wiki page, status "OK" > > stands > > > > for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > >> resolved > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> items, status "ON GOING" stands for 2 items > > that > > > > > we're > > > > > > > > striving to > > > > > > > > >> work > > > > > > > > >> >>>> on > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> and will update. Additionally, there is 1 > item > > > > > marked > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > "NOT APPLY" > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> because the "convenient binaries" model > seems > > > not > > > > > > > fitting > > > > > > > > for eagle, > > > > > > > > >> >>>> could > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> you please verify if it's true and rule RE40 > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> < > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/ > > > > > confluence/display/EAG/Eagle+ > > > > > > > > Podlin > > > > > > > > >> g+Maturity+Assessment# > > EaglePodlingMaturityAssessment > > > > -RE40 > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> could be skipped? > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> Any comment and instruction will be > > appreciated, > > > > as > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > we made or > > > > > > > > >> will > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> make is to keep the project running in the > > right > > > > > way. > > > > > > :) > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> Michael > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Hao Chen > < > > > > > > > > h...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> Thanks very much for bringing up graduation > > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > > for Eagle. > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> Eagle community has almost fully understand > > how > > > > to > > > > > > run > > > > > > > > an open > > > > > > > > >> source > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> project in apache way. Apache Eagle > > > (incubating) > > > > > is > > > > > > > now > > > > > > > > open to be > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> contributed and adopted by lots of > different > > > > > > > > organizations > > > > > > > > >> including > > > > > > > > >> >>>> but > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> not limited to eBay, Paypal, Dataguides, > > > > Yihaodian, > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > >> community > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> has > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> continuously been building and expanding > > itself > > > > by > > > > > > > > sharing and > > > > > > > > >> talking > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> eagle with the word industry in > international > > > > > > > > conferences like > > > > > > > > >> Hadoop > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> Summit, Hadoop Stratus, QCon in San Jose, > > > London, > > > > > > > > Dublin, Shanghai, > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> Beijing, etc. and also lots of meetups. And > > the > > > > > > > > community has > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> successfully > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> release v0.3.0, v0.4.0 and is actively > > > preparing > > > > > > v0.5.0 > > > > > > > > following > > > > > > > > >> >>>> apache > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> releasing process. > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> To make it clear how close is eagle ready > to > > > > > > graduate, > > > > > > > > right now > > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> community is working on preparing an "Eagle > > > > Podling > > > > > > > > Maturity > > > > > > > > >> >>>> Assessment" > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> to > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> measure how mature eagle is and what tasks > > may > > > > > remain > > > > > > > > before > > > > > > > > >> >>>> graduation, > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> will be sent out very soon. > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> - Hao > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 11:25 AM, P. Taylor > > > > Goetz < > > > > > > > > >> ptgo...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>> Graduation is mostly about whether a > podling > > > is > > > > > > > healthy > > > > > > > > in terms > > > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>> growing the community and making > releases. I > > > > don't > > > > > > > > think technical > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> issues > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>> are relevant here. > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>> -Taylor > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> On Jul 28, 2016, at 8:12 PM, Tang > > > > > > > > Jijun(上海_技术部_架构部_大数据平台_唐觊隽) < > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>> tangji...@yhd.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> I don't think eagle is ready to graduate. > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> Because > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> 1 Code is not stable. > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> 2 Project need more unit test. > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> Best Wishes > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> 唐觊隽 > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> Jr. Engineer , Architecture - Fundation, > > Tech > > > > > Dept > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> Floor 4, 295 ZUCHONGZHI RD, Zhangjiang, > > > > Shanghai > > > > > > > > (201203) > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> -----邮件原件----- > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> 发件人: Edward Zhang [mailto: > > > yonzhang2012@apache. > > > > > org] > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> 发送时间: 2016年7月29日 5:19 > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> 收件人: dev@eagle.incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> 主题: Re: [DISCUSS] Is Eagle ready to > > graduate? > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> Yes, we should discuss that on the list, > > and > > > > will > > > > > > go > > > > > > > > through > > > > > > > > >> >>>> maturity > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>> model first soon. > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> Thanks > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> Edward > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Julian > > > Hyde < > > > > > > > > jh...@apache.org> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> … also want to discuss this with other > > > > > > > contributors. > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> Why not discuss with them on this list? > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> Julian > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>>> > > > > > > > > >> >>>> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
