> > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then > go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything > about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? >
Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about making communication more efficient, rather than making information easier to find. Thank you~ Xintong Song On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kna...@apache.org> wrote: > I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have > already concerns about covering one additional channel. > > I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list. > Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and search > is easier. > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then > go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything > about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? > > > > Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song < > tonysong...@gmail.com>: > >> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" pages >> to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on revisiting >> in 6-12 months. >> >> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with >> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping >> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc. >> >> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when >> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would >> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective, >> forums are not much better than mailing lists. >> >> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I >> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to >> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not >> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not >> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack. >> >> Thank you~ >> >> Xintong Song >> >> >> [1] https://asktug.com/ >> >> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kna...@apache.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo >>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and >>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see >>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are >>> intimidated. >>> >>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This >>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion >>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier >>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to >>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a >>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the >>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an >>> ASF machine. [1] >>> >>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated >>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more >>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using >>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally >>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink. If we go for Slack, >>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we >>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Konstantin >>> >>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse >>> >>> >>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther < >>> twal...@apache.org>: >>> >>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink >>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for >>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of >>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also >>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked questions. >>>> >>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design >>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely >>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want >>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox >>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it >>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and >>>> setting up rules is also not convenient. >>>> >>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an >>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might >>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would >>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually >>>> made for modern real-time forums. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Timo >>>> >>>> >>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson: >>>> >>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> for sharing the >>>> experience of the Flink China community. >>>> >>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions >>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach out >>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid >>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about >>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rmetz...@apache.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for >>>>> people to join our Slack (1) >>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they >>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined. >>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that >>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but >>>>> it'll >>>>> work. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF >>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal: >>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel >>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser < >>>>>> martijnvis...@apache.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, >>>>>>> you can >>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a >>>>>>> committer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary >>>>>>> Xintong! >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using >>>>>>> the ASF >>>>>>> > Slack instance? >>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, >>>>>>> and quite >>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance. >>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into >>>>>>> it, on a >>>>>>> > voluntary basis. >>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer >>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and >>>>>>> "Getting >>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground >>>>>>> truth tools" >>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster >>>>>>> communication, but >>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs) >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and >>>>>>> google-indexable. >>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining >>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org. >>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some >>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool. >>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad >>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the >>>>>>> advanced >>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> > goldmine of information. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would >>>>>>> suggest >>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all >>>>>>> important >>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to >>>>>>> developers, >>>>>>> > indexing). >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song < >>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for >>>>>>> dev >>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the >>>>>>> MLs. >>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies >>>>>>> what people >>>>>>> >> should / should not do. >>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think >>>>>>> that also >>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a >>>>>>> no-reply as a >>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is >>>>>>> that, we >>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different >>>>>>> users, >>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical >>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the >>>>>>> archivability and >>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but >>>>>>> none of them >>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments. >>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more >>>>>>> efficient? By >>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and >>>>>>> helpers with >>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, >>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David >>>>>>> mentioned.) >>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on >>>>>>> MLs are >>>>>>> >> now >>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that >>>>>>> into the >>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and >>>>>>> initiate >>>>>>> >> questions on MLs. >>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China >>>>>>> community. >>>>>>> >> We >>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I >>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>> >> do >>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm >>>>>>> really >>>>>>> >> excited >>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & >>>>>>> users than >>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing >>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and >>>>>>> solving >>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not >>>>>>> proactively >>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active >>>>>>> compared >>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of >>>>>>> interaction >>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly >>>>>>> asked & >>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a >>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can >>>>>>> bring such >>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive. >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Thank you~ >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> Xintong Song >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/ >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li < >>>>>>> jingsongl...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their >>>>>>> slack >>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc. >>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate >>>>>>> back and >>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective. >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to >>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. >>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing >>>>>>> list and >>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do). >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson < >>>>>>> dander...@apache.org> >>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result >>>>>>> I get a >>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it >>>>>>> on a >>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow >>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary >>>>>>> expertise >>>>>>> >> takes >>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective >>>>>>> energy >>>>>>> >> to do >>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be >>>>>>> a good >>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to >>>>>>> request help >>>>>>> >> from >>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing >>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very >>>>>>> interesting cases >>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out >>>>>>> what's going >>>>>>> >> on. >>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are >>>>>>> unusual, or >>>>>>> >> when a >>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, >>>>>>> something >>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > David >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin < >>>>>>> becket....@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. >>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the >>>>>>> previous >>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a >>>>>>> slack >>>>>>> >> channel >>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this >>>>>>> topic is >>>>>>> >> raised >>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. >>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. >>>>>>> Although it has >>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> >> who >>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a >>>>>>> lot of >>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves >>>>>>> no public >>>>>>> >> > record at all. >>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink >>>>>>> PMC, some >>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the >>>>>>> suggestions of >>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good >>>>>>> starting >>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the >>>>>>> worst >>>>>>> >> case, we >>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right >>>>>>> now. >>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks, >>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin >>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < >>>>>>> mart...@ververica.com >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >> indexed >>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack >>>>>>> content >>>>>>> >> unless >>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has >>>>>>> progressed >>>>>>> >> and >>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to >>>>>>> users. There >>>>>>> >> are >>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow >>>>>>> [1]. I also >>>>>>> >> see >>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community. >>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing >>>>>>> well-known >>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can >>>>>>> cause a >>>>>>> >> lot >>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish >>>>>>> a set of >>>>>>> >> > community rules. >>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn >>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ >>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski < >>>>>>> pnowoj...@apache.org> >>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, >>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO >>>>>>> it works >>>>>>> >> > great as >>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >> > searchable >>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as >>>>>>> long as >>>>>>> >> the >>>>>>> >> > result >>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing >>>>>>> list/design >>>>>>> >> > doc. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to >>>>>>> achieve. In >>>>>>> >> the >>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same >>>>>>> questions over, >>>>>>> >> > and >>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link >>>>>>> to the >>>>>>> >> > previous >>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . >>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel >>>>>>> for the >>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels >>>>>>> for the >>>>>>> >> > users. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, >>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the >>>>>>> oldest/newest >>>>>>> >> > at top) >>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our >>>>>>> use case >>>>>>> >> much >>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best, >>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek >>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song < >>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >> > napisał(a): >>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack >>>>>>> workspace >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <priv...@flink.apache.org> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is >>>>>>> *repeatedly* >>>>>>> >> > discussed on the >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are >>>>>>> 4 years >>>>>>> >> > ago. On >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking >>>>>>> questions about >>>>>>> >> > whether >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also >>>>>>> find a >>>>>>> >> recent >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative >>>>>>> >> communication >>>>>>> >> > channels >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to >>>>>>> having >>>>>>> >> such >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> >> projects >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during >>>>>>> the past >>>>>>> >> 4 >>>>>>> >> > years. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC >>>>>>> members, >>>>>>> >> > and even >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. >>>>>>> That also >>>>>>> >> > means more >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous >>>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>> >> > Instead of >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, >>>>>>> here we are >>>>>>> >> > proposing >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And >>>>>>> instead >>>>>>> >> of >>>>>>> >> > *moving* >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack >>>>>>> >> Workspace >>>>>>> >> > as an >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous >>>>>>> -1 [1]. >>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I >>>>>>> overlooked >>>>>>> >> > anything, >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> >>>>>>> the ASF >>>>>>> >> Slack >>>>>>> >> > isn't >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into >>>>>>> rather >>>>>>> >> > questionable >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. >>>>>>> If anyone >>>>>>> >> > can >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >> GitHub. >>>>>>> >> > All of >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack >>>>>>> channel >>>>>>> >> > requires an >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. >>>>>>> This >>>>>>> >> > minimizes the >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much >>>>>>> rather >>>>>>> >> prefer >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole >>>>>>> community. I'll >>>>>>> >> > forward this >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1] >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2] >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3] >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4] >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5] >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler < >>>>>>> >> ches...@apache.org >>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the >>>>>>> years and >>>>>>> >> > was >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would >>>>>>> invalidate the >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide >>>>>>> anyway, but >>>>>>> >> the >>>>>>> >> > project >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the >>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>> >> list. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are >>>>>>> surprised >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to >>>>>>> use Slack. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source >>>>>>> communities >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking >>>>>>> people for >>>>>>> >> > opinions >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but >>>>>>> also a >>>>>>> >> > connection to >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> >> social >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example, >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and >>>>>>> >> > presentations >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Flink releases, events in the #news channel >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I >>>>>>> can help >>>>>>> >> set >>>>>>> >> > up the >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best, >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song < >>>>>>> >> tonysong...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all, >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache >>>>>>> Flink >>>>>>> >> slack >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time >>>>>>> communication >>>>>>> >> > through >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time >>>>>>> >> computing, >>>>>>> >> > should >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, >>>>>>> especially >>>>>>> >> for >>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more >>>>>>> contributors >>>>>>> >> from >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be >>>>>>> good to >>>>>>> >> > provide a >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, >>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>> >> > propose to >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >> Flink >>>>>>> >> > PMC. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less >>>>>>> likely >>>>>>> >> > overlooked. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file >>>>>>> transmissions >>>>>>> >> > that help >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, >>>>>>> flink-statefun, >>>>>>> >> > temporal >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.). >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension >>>>>>> rather >>>>>>> >> than a >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members >>>>>>> should >>>>>>> >> still >>>>>>> >> > be >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. >>>>>>> That >>>>>>> >> means: >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important >>>>>>> opinions >>>>>>> >> should >>>>>>> >> > be >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, >>>>>>> according to >>>>>>> >> the >>>>>>> >> > Apache >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t >>>>>>> happen. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc >>>>>>> questions on >>>>>>> >> > slack. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) >>>>>>> should be >>>>>>> >> > posted on >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a >>>>>>> real time >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> >> > responsive. We >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all >>>>>>> contributors are >>>>>>> >> > volunteers. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier >>>>>>> only when >>>>>>> >> all >>>>>>> >> > the >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people >>>>>>> should not >>>>>>> >> > expect >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned >>>>>>> with is >>>>>>> >> > its lack >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search >>>>>>> among them. >>>>>>> >> > There are >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a >>>>>>> first >>>>>>> >> > step, we may >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back >>>>>>> to the >>>>>>> >> > mailing >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected >>>>>>> back to >>>>>>> >> the >>>>>>> >> > mailing >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and >>>>>>> >> searchability. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects >>>>>>> (Apache >>>>>>> >> > hosted or >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not) >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], >>>>>>> IceBerg [3], >>>>>>> >> > HBase [4] >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we >>>>>>> would need >>>>>>> >> an >>>>>>> >> > official >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we >>>>>>> get to >>>>>>> >> > that, I’d >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think. >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~ >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4] >>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> https://twitter.com/snntrable >>> https://github.com/knaufk >>> >> > > -- > https://twitter.com/snntrable > https://github.com/knaufk >
