Thanks everyone for the opinions. And thanks Robert for the summary. I'll start a voting thread.
Best, Xintong On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 3:33 PM Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks a lot Kyle! > > What do you think of concluding this discussion and starting a VOTE about: > 1. Setting up a PMC controlled Slack instance for the Flink community > 2. Updating the Flink website about the various communication channels > 3. Setting up an Archive for our Slack instance > 4. Revisiting this initiative by the end of 2022. > > Xintong, do you want to start the VOTE on dev@? > > On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:41 PM Austin Cawley-Edwards < > austin.caw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Nice, cool to hear Kyle! How do you all approach moderation? Is there > > anything specific you feel like you've "gotten right"/ other tips? > > > > (as a side note, I also love slack). > > > > Austin > > > > > > On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 2:27 PM Kyle Bendickson <k...@tabular.io> wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Chiming in as I work in the Iceberg space and we have our own slack as > > > well, that I am admittedly proud of. > > > > > > We don’t necessarily encounter issues with vendors, though of course we > > do > > > get some noise now and again. > > > > > > Overall, our slack workspace has been cited in multiple blogs and > things > > as > > > one of the bigger benefits of using Iceberg. > > > > > > So I personally can’t recommend a slack workspace enough. > > > > > > Our slack workspace is also one major thing I feel boosts our ability > to > > > attract new contributors and even bug reports we’d otherwise not > receive > > as > > > quickly. > > > > > > A lot of amazing devs / folks out there who maybe don’t see themselves > as > > > “prominent” enough but will speak up on slack. > > > > > > So +1 from your friends in Iceberg (at least me). > > > > > > Feel free to reach out if you have any questions! > > > > > > - Kyle > > > > > > On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:17 AM Austin Cawley-Edwards < > > > austin.caw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt > > > community[1], > > > > which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack > in a > > > > large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their > Slack > > > has > > > > become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community > > > space — > > > > given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face > similar > > > > challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial > > > > setup/guidelines. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Austin > > > > > > > > [1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned) > > > > > +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion > > forum > > > > (I > > > > > like the idea of using GH discussions) > > > > > > > > > > Besides, we still need to investigate how > > > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > > > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the code used by airflow: > > https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive > > > . > > > > > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Hi, > > > > >> > > > > >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to > > > entry > > > > >> as Jingsong mentioned. > > > > >> Besides, we still need to investigate how > > > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > > > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > > > > >> > > > > >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but > > > > >> complementary. > > > > >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But > > what > > > > we > > > > >> are seeking today > > > > >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc > > > questions > > > > >> and interactions. > > > > >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing > > > list > > > > >> but can't solve the problems > > > > >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and > thoughtful > > > > >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable. > > > > >> > > > > >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for > > > Flink > > > > >> and keep this thread focused > > > > >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for > example > > > > >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful > > > > >> and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub > > Discussion > > > as > > > > >> their forum. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best, > > > > >> Jark > > > > >> > > > > >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions > > > > >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser < > mart...@ververica.com > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> Hi, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide > > the > > > > best > > > > >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. > > > > >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on > how > > > to > > > > >>> use > > > > >>> Slack. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Best regards, > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Martijn > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <myas...@live.com> wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Hi all, > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. > > > > However, > > > > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product > > could > > > be > > > > >>> > leveraged easily. > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the > ASF > > > > slack > > > > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up > our > > > own > > > > >>> slack > > > > >>> > workspace. > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Best > > > > >>> > Yun Tang > > > > >>> > ------------------------------ > > > > >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 > > > > >>> > *To:* Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > *Cc:* dev <dev@flink.apache.org>; user <u...@flink.apache.org> > > > > >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack > workspace > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Hi all, > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the > > Apache > > > > >>> Druid > > > > >>> > community. [1] > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for > > new > > > > >>> users > > > > >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid > > Slack > > > > >>> channel. > > > > >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the > > > > >>> workspace > > > > >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with > spammers. > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), > > new > > > > >>> > community > > > > >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. > > > > Unfortunately, > > > > >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new > > > > members, > > > > >>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone > with > > > > full > > > > >>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new > members. > > > > This > > > > >>> lack > > > > >>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > There is a workaround in place ( > > > > >>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users > > can > > > > >>> send an > > > > >>> > email to druid-u...@googlegroups.com to request an invite to > the > > > > Slack > > > > >>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a > barrier > > to > > > > >>> entry, > > > > >>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates > potential > > > > >>> privacy > > > > >>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using > > > Druid > > > > >>> nor > > > > >>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum. > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > [1] > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5 > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Best, > > > > >>> > Jingsong > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song < > > > tonysong...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > >>> > wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs > none > > > and > > > > >>> then > > > > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is > there > > > > >>> anything > > > > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the > > > implementation? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative > is > > > more > > > > >>> about > > > > >>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making > > > information > > > > >>> > easier > > > > >>> > > to find. > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > Thank you~ > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > Xintong Song > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf < > > > > kna...@apache.org> > > > > >>> > > wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some > > > people > > > > >>> have > > > > >>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a > > > mailing > > > > >>> list. > > > > >>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, > sign > > up > > > > and > > > > >>> > search > > > > >>> > >> is easier. > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs > > none > > > > and > > > > >>> then > > > > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is > there > > > > >>> anything > > > > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the > > > implementation? > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song < > > > > >>> > >> tonysong...@gmail.com>: > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and > "Getting > > > > Help" > > > > >>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and > > Slack, > > > > >>> and on > > > > >>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months. > > > > >>> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm > > with > > > > >>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more > > channels > > > > and > > > > >>> > keeping > > > > >>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, > > > adding > > > > >>> bots, > > > > >>> > etc. > > > > >>> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication > > > efficiency > > > > >>> when > > > > >>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such > > improvement > > > > >>> would > > > > >>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that > > > > >>> perspective, > > > > >>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists. > > > > >>> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative > to > > > > >>> Slack. I > > > > >>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information > > organized > > > > and > > > > >>> > easy to > > > > >>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance > > > > overhead. > > > > >>> I'm > > > > >>> > not > > > > >>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is > that > > > > they > > > > >>> are > > > > >>> > not > > > > >>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack. > > > > >>> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>> Thank you~ > > > > >>> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>> Xintong Song > > > > >>> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/ > > > > >>> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf < > > > > >>> kna...@apache.org> > > > > >>> > >>> wrote: > > > > >>> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty > much > > > with > > > > >>> Timo > > > > >>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user > > > > >>> community, and > > > > >>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, > etc. I > > > > >>> > definitely see > > > > >>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if > > users > > > > are > > > > >>> > >>>> intimidated. > > > > >>> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka > > > > Slack. > > > > >>> This > > > > >>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and > thoughtful > > > > >>> > discussion > > > > >>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, > where > > > it > > > > is > > > > >>> > easier > > > > >>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes > > > more > > > > >>> sense > > > > >>> > to > > > > >>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and > > > > vibrant > > > > >>> > than a > > > > >>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse > would > > > have > > > > >>> the > > > > >>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably > > > > self-host > > > > >>> it > > > > >>> > on an > > > > >>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1] > > > > >>> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a > > > > >>> dedicated > > > > >>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we > > > could > > > > >>> have > > > > >>> > more > > > > >>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using > > > > >>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could > > > > generally > > > > >>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink. If we > > go > > > > for > > > > >>> > Slack, > > > > >>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we > > do > > > > >>> this, we > > > > >>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack > > > > itself. > > > > >>> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>> Cheers, > > > > >>> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>> Konstantin > > > > >>> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse > > > > >>> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther < > > > > >>> > >>>> twal...@apache.org>: > > > > >>> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. > The > > > > Flink > > > > >>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be > > > useful > > > > >>> for > > > > >>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The > > > DingTalk > > > > >>> > channel of > > > > >>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to > see. > > > It > > > > >>> could > > > > >>> > also > > > > >>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering > frequently > > > > asked > > > > >>> > questions. > > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to > > > design > > > > >>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should > > > > >>> definitely > > > > >>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that > users > > > > might > > > > >>> not > > > > >>> > want > > > > >>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and > > get > > > > >>> their > > > > >>> > mailbox > > > > >>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a > > > company > > > > >>> > setting it > > > > >>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for > > > > mailing > > > > >>> > lists and > > > > >>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient. > > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We > should > > > find > > > > >>> an > > > > >>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the > right > > > > >>> tool. It > > > > >>> > might > > > > >>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? > The > > > > latter > > > > >>> > would > > > > >>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. > Discourse > > > is > > > > >>> > actually > > > > >>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums. > > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>> Regards, > > > > >>> > >>>>> Timo > > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson: > > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> for > > sharing > > > > the > > > > >>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community. > > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for > > > > >>> discussions > > > > >>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the > > community > > > > can > > > > >>> > reach out > > > > >>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we > will > > > > need a > > > > >>> > paid > > > > >>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy > enough > > > > >>> (took me > > > > >>> > about > > > > >>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down > this > > > > route. > > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>> David > > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger < > > > > >>> rmetz...@apache.org> > > > > >>> > >>>>> wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink > > > > >>> website for > > > > >>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1) > > > > >>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no > time-expiration, > > > but > > > > >>> they > > > > >>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined. > > > > >>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener ( > > > > https://s.apache.org) > > > > >>> > that > > > > >>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice > > > > >>> solution, > > > > >>> > but it'll > > > > >>> > >>>>>> work. > > > > >>> > >>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>> (1) > > > > >>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159 > > > > >>> > >>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger < > > > > >>> metrob...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > >>>>>> wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience > > to > > > > the > > > > >>> ASF > > > > >>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>> > > > > >>> > https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel > > > > >>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it > > > > >>> > >>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser < > > > > >>> > >>>>>>> martijnvis...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF > > instance > > > of > > > > >>> > Slack, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> you can > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're > > invited > > > > by a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger < > > > > >>> metrob...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks > for > > > the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong! > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance > > instead > > > > of > > > > >>> > using > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance? > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are > retained > > > > >>> forever, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and quite > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack > > > instance, > > > > >>> that > > > > >>> > we > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> could > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some > more > > > > effort > > > > >>> > into > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that > Slack > > > for > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> developer > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and > > flink-pmc > > > > >>> chat. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the > > > > "Community" > > > > >>> and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are > the > > > > >>> "ground > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools" > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate > faster > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't > > > > respond > > > > >>> to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> DMs) > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be > nice > > to > > > > >>> find > > > > >>> > some > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple > > > > indexing > > > > >>> > tool. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because > of > > > > some > > > > >>> bad > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where > most > > > of > > > > >>> the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> advanced > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few > > > weeks > > > > >>> to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> find that > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, > but > > I > > > > >>> would > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggest > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if > > > really > > > > >>> all > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> important > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, > and > > > > that > > > > >>> we > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> get the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better > > experience > > > > for > > > > >>> > users > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns > (DMs > > to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> developers, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing). > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song < > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about > using > > > > >>> Slack for > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> dev > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected > > > back > > > > >>> to the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly > > > > >>> specifies > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> what people > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers > > > /committers, > > > > I > > > > >>> > think > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> that also > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd > > > understand > > > > a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the > > cod > > > of > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> conduct. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the > > major > > > > >>> concern > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions > > from > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> different users, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching > > > > >>> historical > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution > for > > > the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like > Zapier > > > [1], > > > > >>> but > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> none of them > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 > > > > >>> arguments. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication > > > more > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question > > > askers > > > > >>> and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / > > > video > > > > >>> > calls, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> etc. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is > needed, > > > as > > > > >>> David > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.) > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough > > > > >>> attentions on > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> now > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can > > probably > > > > put > > > > >>> that > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> into the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first > > search > > > > and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> initiate > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the > > Flink > > > > >>> China > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> community. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> We > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members > > (might > > > be > > > > >>> less, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> do > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. > > > What > > > > >>> I'm > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> really > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions > > between > > > > >>> users & > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> users than > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each > > > other, > > > > >>> > sharing > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / > > > > >>> documentations > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and solving > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get > > pinged, > > > > if > > > > >>> not > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> proactively > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are > way > > > > more > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> active compared > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the > > > > >>> improvement of > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> interaction > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being > > > > >>> repeatedly > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> asked & > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to > the > > > > >>> benefit > > > > >>> > of a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see > if > > > we > > > > >>> can > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> bring such > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more > > > > >>> attention > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> from the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, > > Piotr > > > & > > > > >>> David. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> I think > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual > > > > exclusive. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~ > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/ > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li < > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> jingsongl...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have > set > > > up > > > > >>> their > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache > Druid > > > [2], > > > > >>> etc. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to > > > > >>> communicate > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> back and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more > effective. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about > > > whether > > > > >>> there > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> are > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in > > the > > > > >>> slack, > > > > >>> > to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to > > the > > > > >>> mailing > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> list and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we > > > need > > > > to > > > > >>> > do). > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson < > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> dander...@apache.org> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, > and > > > as > > > > a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but > > want > > > > to > > > > >>> do > > > > >>> > it > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> on a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and > > > > shared. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on > > > stack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> overflow > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the > > > > >>> necessary > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> expertise > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has > the > > > > >>> > collective > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> energy > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack > > > overflow > > > > >>> would > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> be a good > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for > > users > > > > to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> request help > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support > on > > > the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> existing > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to > burnout. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but > > very > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to > > figure > > > > out > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> what's going > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> on. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the > requirements > > > are > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these > > > > >>> > circumstances, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> something > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or > > stack > > > > >>> > overflow. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin < > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> becket....@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those > > mentioned > > > > in > > > > >>> the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> previous > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits > of > > > > >>> having a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact > > > that > > > > >>> this > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> topic is > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack > > > channel. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd > > imagine > > > > >>> that > > > > >>> > for > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> people > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> who > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack > > > > >>> channel, a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> lot of > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, > > > which > > > > >>> leaves > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> no public > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained > > by > > > > the > > > > >>> > Flink > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I > think > > > the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the > emails > > > are > > > > >>> good > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> starting > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it > > goes. > > > > In > > > > >>> the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> worst > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where > we > > > are > > > > >>> right > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> now. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser > < > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mart...@ververica.com > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside > (the > > > > >>> results > > > > >>> > are > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> not > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link > directly > > > to > > > > >>> Slack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> content > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open > source > > > > space > > > > >>> has > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> progressed > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's > > > invaluable > > > > >>> to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> users. There > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> are > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like > Apache > > > > >>> Airflow > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> see > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active > > > > >>> community. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start > > > DMing > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> well-known > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR > > merged. > > > > >>> That can > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> cause a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need > > to > > > > >>> > establish > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> a set of > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski < > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> pnowoj...@apache.org> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for > > the > > > > >>> job. IMO > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> it works > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between > > developers, > > > > but > > > > >>> > it's > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> not > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it > > works > > > > >>> fine, as > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> long as > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to > > > > >>> JIRA/mailing > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> list/design > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely > > > > difficult > > > > >>> to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering > the > > > > same > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions over, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to > > > > provide a > > > > >>> > link > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack > > > > >>> space/channel > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for > > such > > > > >>> > channels > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, > > for > > > > >>> example, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers > > > (not > > > > >>> the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top) > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make > > it > > > > fit > > > > >>> our > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> use case > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> much > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song < > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a): > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache > > > Flink > > > > >>> slack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> workspace > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <priv...@flink.apache.org> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this > > is > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly* > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & > > [2], > > > > >>> which > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are > > > asking > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions about > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. > > Besides, > > > I > > > > >>> also > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> find a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where > > > > >>> alternative > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is > > > quite > > > > >>> open > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to having > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> such > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been > > worked > > > > >>> well for > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> many > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this > > discussion > > > > >>> again: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have > > > change > > > > >>> > during > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the past > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4 > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including > > > committers > > > > >>> and > > > > >>> > PMC > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> members, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and > > > > >>> timezones. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> That also > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the > > > > >>> previous > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> discussion. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF > > > > >>> workspace, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> here we are > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack > > > > >>> workspace. > > > > >>> > And > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> instead > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> of > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving* > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing > to > > > > add a > > > > >>> > Slack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from > > your > > > > >>> previous > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1]. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack > Workspace. > > > If > > > > I > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this > > service > > > > >>> into > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official > > ASF > > > > >>> > service. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do > so. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the > mailing > > > > lists, > > > > >>> > JIRA > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, > whereas > > > the > > > > >>> slack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> channel > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to > be > > a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I > > > would > > > > >>> much > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the > > whole > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1] > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2] > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3] > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4] > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5] > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay > > > Schepler > > > > < > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> ches...@apache.org > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on > the > > ML > > > > >>> over > > > > >>> > the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> years and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed > that > > > > would > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm > still > > -1 > > > > on > > > > >>> it. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC > should > > > > decide > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this > exciting > > > > topic. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential > > addition > > > > to > > > > >>> the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mailing > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> list. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and > > > they > > > > >>> are > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> surprised > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they > > would > > > > >>> love to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new > > open-source > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communities > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base > > camp. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming > > and > > > > >>> asking > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> people for > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place > > for > > > > Q&A > > > > >>> but > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> also a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the > > > > >>> community > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> have more > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> social > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Share ideas, projects, integrations, > > > > >>> articles, > > > > >>> > and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Flink releases, events in the #news > > > channel > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink > > > slack, > > > > >>> and I > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> can help > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> set > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong > Song > > < > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on > > creating > > > an > > > > >>> > Apache > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Flink > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do > > real > > > > time > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique > > for > > > > real > > > > >>> > time > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for > > > > >>> communication, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> especially > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> for > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more > and > > > > more > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, > it > > > > would > > > > >>> be > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> good to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time > > communications. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is > > > > >>> maintained > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> by the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. > Messages > > > are > > > > >>> less > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> likely > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video > calls, > > > > file > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., > flink-ml, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific > topics, > > > > etc.). > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be > an > > > > >>> extension > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. > > Community > > > > >>> members > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> still > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the > > > > mailing > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> means: > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and > > > > important > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> opinions > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. > > After > > > > all, > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> according to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing > > list, > > > > it > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only > ask > > > ad > > > > >>> hoc > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions on > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that > > > grow > > > > >>> long) > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should be > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on > > > slack > > > > >>> for a > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> real time > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being > > > pinged > > > > >>> need > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to be > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where > > all > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make > > communication > > > > >>> easier > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> only when > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> all > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear > > > that > > > > >>> people > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should not > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is > > often > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and > > to > > > > >>> search > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> among them. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this > > > > >>> problem[1]. As > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> a first > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting > > > > things > > > > >>> back > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is > properly > > > > >>> reflected > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> back to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the > > > archivability > > > > >>> and > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular > open-source > > > > >>> projects > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not) > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: > > > AirFlow > > > > >>> [2], > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3], > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4] > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache > > > > Flink, > > > > >>> we > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> would need > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> an > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. > > But > > > > >>> before > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> we get to > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think. > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~ > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] > > > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] > https://airflow.apache.org/community > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] > > > > >>> https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4] > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>> -- > > > > >>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable > > > > >>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk > > > > >>> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> -- > > > > >>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable > > > > >>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >
