Thanks a lot Kyle! What do you think of concluding this discussion and starting a VOTE about: 1. Setting up a PMC controlled Slack instance for the Flink community 2. Updating the Flink website about the various communication channels 3. Setting up an Archive for our Slack instance 4. Revisiting this initiative by the end of 2022.
Xintong, do you want to start the VOTE on dev@? On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:41 PM Austin Cawley-Edwards < austin.caw...@gmail.com> wrote: > Nice, cool to hear Kyle! How do you all approach moderation? Is there > anything specific you feel like you've "gotten right"/ other tips? > > (as a side note, I also love slack). > > Austin > > > On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 2:27 PM Kyle Bendickson <k...@tabular.io> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Chiming in as I work in the Iceberg space and we have our own slack as > > well, that I am admittedly proud of. > > > > We don’t necessarily encounter issues with vendors, though of course we > do > > get some noise now and again. > > > > Overall, our slack workspace has been cited in multiple blogs and things > as > > one of the bigger benefits of using Iceberg. > > > > So I personally can’t recommend a slack workspace enough. > > > > Our slack workspace is also one major thing I feel boosts our ability to > > attract new contributors and even bug reports we’d otherwise not receive > as > > quickly. > > > > A lot of amazing devs / folks out there who maybe don’t see themselves as > > “prominent” enough but will speak up on slack. > > > > So +1 from your friends in Iceberg (at least me). > > > > Feel free to reach out if you have any questions! > > > > - Kyle > > > > On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 10:17 AM Austin Cawley-Edwards < > > austin.caw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Would just like to share an interesting article from the dbt > > community[1], > > > which in part describes some of their challenges in managing Slack in a > > > large community. The biggest point it seems to make is that their Slack > > has > > > become a marketing tool for dbt/data vendors instead of a community > > space — > > > given the diversity of vendors in the Flink space, we may face similar > > > challenges. Perhaps their experience can help us with the initial > > > setup/guidelines. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Austin > > > > > > [1]: https://pedram.substack.com/p/we-need-to-talk-about-dbt?s=r > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 6:04 AM Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > +1 on setting up our own Slack instance (PMC owned) > > > > +1 for having a separate discussion about setting up a discussion > forum > > > (I > > > > like the idea of using GH discussions) > > > > > > > > Besides, we still need to investigate how > > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the code used by airflow: > https://github.com/ashb/slackarchive > > . > > > > I'm happy to look into setting up the archive for the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:00 AM Jark Wu <imj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >> Hi, > > > >> > > > >> I would +1 to create Apache Flink Slack for the lower barriers to > > entry > > > >> as Jingsong mentioned. > > > >> Besides, we still need to investigate how > > > >> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org works, I think > > > >> a slack of our own can be easier to set up the archive. > > > >> > > > >> Regarding Discourse vs Slack, I think they are not exclusive, but > > > >> complementary. > > > >> Someday in the future, we might be able to provide them both. But > what > > > we > > > >> are seeking today > > > >> is a tool that can provide real-time communication and ad-hoc > > questions > > > >> and interactions. > > > >> A forum is more similar to a mailing list. Forum is modern mailing > > list > > > >> but can't solve the problems > > > >> mentioned above. With slack-archives, the information and thoughtful > > > >> discussion in Slack can also be searchable. > > > >> > > > >> I think we can open another thread to discuss creating a forum for > > Flink > > > >> and keep this thread focused > > > >> on Slack. IMO, we can investigate more kinds of forums, for example > > > >> GitHub Discussion which is free, powerful > > > >> and fully-managed. Airflow[1] and Next.JS also use GitHub > Discussion > > as > > > >> their forum. > > > >> > > > >> Best, > > > >> Jark > > > >> > > > >> [1]: https://github.com/apache/airflow/discussions > > > >> [2]: https://github.com/vercel/next.js/discussions > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 15:24, Martijn Visser <mart...@ververica.com > > > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Hi, > > > >>> > > > >>> I would +1 setting up our own Slack. It will allow us to provide > the > > > best > > > >>> experience for those in the community who want to use Slack. > > > >>> More than happy to help with setting up community guidelines on how > > to > > > >>> use > > > >>> Slack. > > > >>> > > > >>> Best regards, > > > >>> > > > >>> Martijn > > > >>> > > > >>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 at 05:22, Yun Tang <myas...@live.com> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> > Hi all, > > > >>> > > > > >>> > I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. > > > However, > > > >>> > unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product > could > > be > > > >>> > leveraged easily. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF > > > slack > > > >>> > cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our > > own > > > >>> slack > > > >>> > workspace. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Best > > > >>> > Yun Tang > > > >>> > ------------------------------ > > > >>> > *From:* Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> > > > >>> > *Sent:* Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 > > > >>> > *To:* Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > > > >>> > *Cc:* dev <dev@flink.apache.org>; user <u...@flink.apache.org> > > > >>> > *Subject:* Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Hi all, > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the > Apache > > > >>> Druid > > > >>> > community. [1] > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for > new > > > >>> users > > > >>> > without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid > Slack > > > >>> channel. > > > >>> > ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the > > > >>> workspace > > > >>> > to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), > new > > > >>> > community > > > >>> > members should only be invited as single-channel guests. > > > Unfortunately, > > > >>> > single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new > > > members, > > > >>> > including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with > > > full > > > >>> > member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. > > > This > > > >>> lack > > > >>> > of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > There is a workaround in place ( > > > >>> > https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users > can > > > >>> send an > > > >>> > email to druid-u...@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the > > > Slack > > > >>> > channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier > to > > > >>> entry, > > > >>> > and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential > > > >>> privacy > > > >>> > issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using > > Druid > > > >>> nor > > > >>> > wishes to display their email address in a public forum. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > [1] > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5 > > > >>> > > > > >>> > Best, > > > >>> > Jingsong > > > >>> > > > > >>> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song < > > tonysong...@gmail.com > > > > > > > >>> > wrote: > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none > > and > > > >>> then > > > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there > > > >>> anything > > > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the > > implementation? > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is > > more > > > >>> about > > > >>> > > making communication more efficient, rather than making > > information > > > >>> > easier > > > >>> > > to find. > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Thank you~ > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Xintong Song > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf < > > > kna...@apache.org> > > > >>> > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some > > people > > > >>> have > > > >>> > >> already concerns about covering one additional channel. > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a > > mailing > > > >>> list. > > > >>> > >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign > up > > > and > > > >>> > search > > > >>> > >> is easier. > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs > none > > > and > > > >>> then > > > >>> > >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there > > > >>> anything > > > >>> > >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the > > implementation? > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song < > > > >>> > >> tonysong...@gmail.com>: > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting > > > Help" > > > >>> > >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and > Slack, > > > >>> and on > > > >>> > >>> revisiting in 6-12 months. > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm > with > > > >>> > >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more > channels > > > and > > > >>> > keeping > > > >>> > >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, > > adding > > > >>> bots, > > > >>> > etc. > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication > > efficiency > > > >>> when > > > >>> > >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such > improvement > > > >>> would > > > >>> > >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that > > > >>> perspective, > > > >>> > >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists. > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to > > > >>> Slack. I > > > >>> > >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information > organized > > > and > > > >>> > easy to > > > >>> > >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance > > > overhead. > > > >>> I'm > > > >>> > not > > > >>> > >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that > > > they > > > >>> are > > > >>> > not > > > >>> > >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack. > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> Thank you~ > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> Xintong Song > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> [1] https://asktug.com/ > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf < > > > >>> kna...@apache.org> > > > >>> > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much > > with > > > >>> Timo > > > >>> > >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user > > > >>> community, and > > > >>> > >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I > > > >>> > definitely see > > > >>> > >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if > users > > > are > > > >>> > >>>> intimidated. > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka > > > Slack. > > > >>> This > > > >>> > >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful > > > >>> > discussion > > > >>> > >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where > > it > > > is > > > >>> > easier > > > >>> > >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes > > more > > > >>> sense > > > >>> > to > > > >>> > >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and > > > vibrant > > > >>> > than a > > > >>> > >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would > > have > > > >>> the > > > >>> > >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably > > > self-host > > > >>> it > > > >>> > on an > > > >>> > >>>> ASF machine. [1] > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a > > > >>> dedicated > > > >>> > >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we > > could > > > >>> have > > > >>> > more > > > >>> > >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using > > > >>> > >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could > > > generally > > > >>> > >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink. If we > go > > > for > > > >>> > Slack, > > > >>> > >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we > do > > > >>> this, we > > > >>> > >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack > > > itself. > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> Cheers, > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> Konstantin > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther < > > > >>> > >>>> twal...@apache.org>: > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The > > > Flink > > > >>> > >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be > > useful > > > >>> for > > > >>> > >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The > > DingTalk > > > >>> > channel of > > > >>> > >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. > > It > > > >>> could > > > >>> > also > > > >>> > >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently > > > asked > > > >>> > questions. > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to > > design > > > >>> > >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should > > > >>> definitely > > > >>> > >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users > > > might > > > >>> not > > > >>> > want > > > >>> > >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and > get > > > >>> their > > > >>> > mailbox > > > >>> > >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a > > company > > > >>> > setting it > > > >>> > >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for > > > mailing > > > >>> > lists and > > > >>> > >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient. > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should > > find > > > >>> an > > > >>> > >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right > > > >>> tool. It > > > >>> > might > > > >>> > >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The > > > latter > > > >>> > would > > > >>> > >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse > > is > > > >>> > actually > > > >>> > >>>>> made for modern real-time forums. > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>> Regards, > > > >>> > >>>>> Timo > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson: > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> for > sharing > > > the > > > >>> > >>>>> experience of the Flink China community. > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for > > > >>> discussions > > > >>> > >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the > community > > > can > > > >>> > reach out > > > >>> > >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will > > > need a > > > >>> > paid > > > >>> > >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough > > > >>> (took me > > > >>> > about > > > >>> > >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this > > > route. > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>> David > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger < > > > >>> rmetz...@apache.org> > > > >>> > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink > > > >>> website for > > > >>> > >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1) > > > >>> > >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, > > but > > > >>> they > > > >>> > >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined. > > > >>> > >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener ( > > > https://s.apache.org) > > > >>> > that > > > >>> > >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice > > > >>> solution, > > > >>> > but it'll > > > >>> > >>>>>> work. > > > >>> > >>>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>> (1) > > > >>> https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159 > > > >>> > >>>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger < > > > >>> metrob...@gmail.com> > > > >>> > >>>>>> wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience > to > > > the > > > >>> ASF > > > >>> > >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal: > > > >>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel > > > >>> > >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it > > > >>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser < > > > >>> > >>>>>>> martijnvis...@apache.org> wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF > instance > > of > > > >>> > Slack, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> you can > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're > invited > > > by a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger < > > > >>> metrob...@gmail.com> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for > > the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> summary Xintong! > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance > instead > > > of > > > >>> > using > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Slack instance? > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained > > > >>> forever, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and quite > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack > > instance, > > > >>> that > > > >>> > we > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> could > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more > > > effort > > > >>> > into > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> it, on a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack > > for > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> developer > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and > flink-pmc > > > >>> chat. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the > > > "Community" > > > >>> and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> "Getting > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the > > > >>> "ground > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> truth tools" > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication, but > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't > > > respond > > > >>> to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> DMs) > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> google-indexable. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice > to > > > >>> find > > > >>> > some > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple > > > indexing > > > >>> > tool. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of > > > some > > > >>> bad > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most > > of > > > >>> the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> advanced > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few > > weeks > > > >>> to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> find that > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but > I > > > >>> would > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggest > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if > > really > > > >>> all > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> important > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and > > > that > > > >>> we > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> get the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better > experience > > > for > > > >>> > users > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs > to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> developers, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > indexing). > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song < > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using > > > >>> Slack for > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> dev > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected > > back > > > >>> to the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly > > > >>> specifies > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> what people > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers > > /committers, > > > I > > > >>> > think > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> that also > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd > > understand > > > a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> no-reply as a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the > cod > > of > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> conduct. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the > major > > > >>> concern > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> is that, we > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions > from > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> different users, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching > > > >>> historical > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for > > the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> archivability and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier > > [1], > > > >>> but > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> none of them > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 > > > >>> arguments. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication > > more > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> efficient? By > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question > > askers > > > >>> and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> helpers with > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / > > video > > > >>> > calls, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> etc. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, > > as > > > >>> David > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned.) > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough > > > >>> attentions on > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> MLs are > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> now > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can > probably > > > put > > > >>> that > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> into the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first > search > > > and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> initiate > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the > Flink > > > >>> China > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> community. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> We > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members > (might > > be > > > >>> less, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> I didn't > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> do > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. > > What > > > >>> I'm > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> really > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> excited > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions > between > > > >>> users & > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> users than > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each > > other, > > > >>> > sharing > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / > > > >>> documentations > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and solving > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get > pinged, > > > if > > > >>> not > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> proactively > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way > > > more > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> active compared > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the > > > >>> improvement of > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> interaction > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being > > > >>> repeatedly > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> asked & > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the > > > >>> benefit > > > >>> > of a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if > > we > > > >>> can > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> bring such > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more > > > >>> attention > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> from the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, > Piotr > > & > > > >>> David. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> I think > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual > > > exclusive. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~ > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/ > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li < > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> jingsongl...@gmail.com> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set > > up > > > >>> their > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid > > [2], > > > >>> etc. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to > > > >>> communicate > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> back and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about > > whether > > > >>> there > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> are > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in > the > > > >>> slack, > > > >>> > to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to > the > > > >>> mailing > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> list and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we > > need > > > to > > > >>> > do). > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson < > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> dander...@apache.org> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and > > as > > > a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> result I get a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but > want > > > to > > > >>> do > > > >>> > it > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> on a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and > > > shared. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on > > stack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> overflow > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the > > > >>> necessary > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> expertise > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> takes > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the > > > >>> > collective > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> energy > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> to do > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack > > overflow > > > >>> would > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> be a good > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for > users > > > to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> request help > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on > > the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> existing > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but > very > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> interesting cases > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to > figure > > > out > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> what's going > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> on. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements > > are > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> unusual, or > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> when a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these > > > >>> > circumstances, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> something > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or > stack > > > >>> > overflow. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > David > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin < > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> becket....@gmail.com> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those > mentioned > > > in > > > >>> the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> previous > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of > > > >>> having a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> slack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> channel > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact > > that > > > >>> this > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> topic is > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> raised > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack > > channel. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Although it has > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd > imagine > > > >>> that > > > >>> > for > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> people > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> who > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack > > > >>> channel, a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> lot of > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, > > which > > > >>> leaves > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> no public > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > record at all. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained > by > > > the > > > >>> > Flink > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> PMC, some > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think > > the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> suggestions of > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails > > are > > > >>> good > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> starting > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it > goes. > > > In > > > >>> the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> worst > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> case, we > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we > > are > > > >>> right > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> now. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mart...@ververica.com > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the > > > >>> results > > > >>> > are > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> not > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> indexed > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly > > to > > > >>> Slack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> content > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> unless > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source > > > space > > > >>> has > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> progressed > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's > > invaluable > > > >>> to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> users. There > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> are > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache > > > >>> Airflow > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> [1]. I also > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> see > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active > > > >>> community. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start > > DMing > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> well-known > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR > merged. > > > >>> That can > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> cause a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> lot > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need > to > > > >>> > establish > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> a set of > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > community rules. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski < > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> pnowoj...@apache.org> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for > the > > > >>> job. IMO > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> it works > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > great as > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between > developers, > > > but > > > >>> > it's > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> not > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > searchable > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it > works > > > >>> fine, as > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> long as > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > result > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to > > > >>> JIRA/mailing > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> list/design > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > doc. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely > > > difficult > > > >>> to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> achieve. In > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the > > > same > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions over, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to > > > provide a > > > >>> > link > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > previous > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack > > > >>> space/channel > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for > such > > > >>> > channels > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> for the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > users. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, > for > > > >>> example, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers > > (not > > > >>> the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> oldest/newest > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > at top) > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make > it > > > fit > > > >>> our > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> use case > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> much > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song < > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a): > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache > > Flink > > > >>> slack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> workspace > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <priv...@flink.apache.org> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this > is > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> *repeatedly* > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & > [2], > > > >>> which > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> are 4 years > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are > > asking > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions about > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > whether > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. > Besides, > > I > > > >>> also > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> find a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> recent > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where > > > >>> alternative > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> communication > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > channels > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is > > quite > > > >>> open > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to having > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> such > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been > worked > > > >>> well for > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> many > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> projects > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this > discussion > > > >>> again: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have > > change > > > >>> > during > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the past > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> 4 > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > years. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including > > committers > > > >>> and > > > >>> > PMC > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> members, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > and even > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and > > > >>> timezones. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> That also > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > means more > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the > > > >>> previous > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> discussion. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF > > > >>> workspace, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> here we are > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > proposing > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack > > > >>> workspace. > > > >>> > And > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> instead > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> of > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > *moving* > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to > > > add a > > > >>> > Slack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Workspace > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > as an > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from > your > > > >>> previous > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> -1 [1]. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. > > If > > > I > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> overlooked > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > anything, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> the ASF > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Slack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > isn't > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this > service > > > >>> into > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > questionable > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official > ASF > > > >>> > service. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> If anyone > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > can > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing > > > lists, > > > >>> > JIRA > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> GitHub. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > All of > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas > > the > > > >>> slack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> channel > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > requires an > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be > a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> committer. This > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I > > would > > > >>> much > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> prefer > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the > whole > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> community. I'll > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > forward this > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1] > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2] > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3] > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4] > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5] > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay > > Schepler > > > < > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> ches...@apache.org > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the > ML > > > >>> over > > > >>> > the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> years and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > was > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that > > > would > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> invalidate the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still > -1 > > > on > > > >>> it. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should > > > decide > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> anyway, but > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > project > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting > > > topic. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential > addition > > > to > > > >>> the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mailing > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> list. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and > > they > > > >>> are > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> surprised > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they > would > > > >>> love to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> use Slack. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new > open-source > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communities > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base > camp. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming > and > > > >>> asking > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> people for > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > opinions > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place > for > > > Q&A > > > >>> but > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> also a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > connection to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the > > > >>> community > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> have more > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> social > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Share ideas, projects, integrations, > > > >>> articles, > > > >>> > and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > presentations > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Flink releases, events in the #news > > channel > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink > > slack, > > > >>> and I > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> can help > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> set > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > up the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song > < > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> tonysong...@gmail.com> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on > creating > > an > > > >>> > Apache > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Flink > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> slack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do > real > > > time > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> communication > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > through > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique > for > > > real > > > >>> > time > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> computing, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > should > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for > > > >>> communication, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> especially > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> for > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and > > > more > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> from > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it > > > would > > > >>> be > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> good to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > provide a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time > communications. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > propose to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is > > > >>> maintained > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> by the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> Flink > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > PMC. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages > > are > > > >>> less > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> likely > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, > > > file > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> transmissions > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that help > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> flink-statefun, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > temporal > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, > > > etc.). > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an > > > >>> extension > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> rather > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> than a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. > Community > > > >>> members > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> still > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the > > > mailing > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> lists. That > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> means: > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and > > > important > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> opinions > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> should > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > be > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. > After > > > all, > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> according to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > Apache > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing > list, > > > it > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> didn’t happen. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask > > ad > > > >>> hoc > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> questions on > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > slack. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that > > grow > > > >>> long) > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should be > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > posted on > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on > > slack > > > >>> for a > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> real time > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being > > pinged > > > >>> need > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to be > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where > all > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> contributors are > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make > communication > > > >>> easier > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> only when > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> all > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear > > that > > > >>> people > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> should not > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > expect > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is > often > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> mentioned with is > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > its lack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and > to > > > >>> search > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> among them. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > There are > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this > > > >>> problem[1]. As > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> a first > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting > > > things > > > >>> back > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> to the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly > > > >>> reflected > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> back to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> the > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > mailing > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the > > archivability > > > >>> and > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> searchability. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source > > > >>> projects > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> (Apache > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not) > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: > > AirFlow > > > >>> [2], > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3], > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4] > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache > > > Flink, > > > >>> we > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> would need > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> an > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > official > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. > But > > > >>> before > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> we get to > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think. > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~ > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] > > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] > > > >>> https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4] > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> >> > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > >>>>>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>>>> > > > >>> > >>>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> -- > > > >>> > >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable > > > >>> > >>>> https://github.com/knaufk > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > >> -- > > > >>> > >> https://twitter.com/snntrable > > > >>> > >> https://github.com/knaufk > > > >>> > >> > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > >
