Hi Alex,
Im wondering how is suppose to be easier for users to

$ git clone kie-tools
$ cd kie-tools
$ pnpm bootstrap -F runtime-examples...
$ cd examples/runtime-examples
(to some extent at this point you can interact with the examples as a
standalone thing)
$ idea/code/eclipse .
$ mvn clean compile,

rather than, as Dominik just proposed, do

 1. git clone [email protected]:apache/incubator-kie-kogito-examples.git
  2. git checkout stable-10.0.0
  3. cd the-best-example-in-the-world
  4. Follow README instructions to work with it



On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:06 PM Alex Porcelli <[email protected]> wrote:

> Enrique, unfortunately this is not entirely possible. The only reason
> to move the examples under the kie-tools repo is because of examples
> depending on kie-tools artifacts, so to properly build the examples
> you have first build the dependencies.
>
> To work with the examples the steps would be something along the
> following lines:
>
> $ git clone kie-tools
> $ cd kie-tools
> $ pnpm bootstrap -F runtime-examples...
> $ cd examples/runtime-examples
> (to some extent at this point you can interact with the examples as a
> standalone thing)
> $ idea/code/eclipse .
> $ mvn clean compile,
>
> (this is not 100% precise because it depends on how the examples are
> moved etc... but hopefully you get the idea).
>
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:55 AM Enrique Gonzalez Martinez
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Regarding this topic as some of the people mentioned before this is a
> > matter of proper pipeline. Moving the examples to kie tools should be
> > a temporary solution but we know that there is nothing more permanent
> > than a temporary solution as everybody will get back to deadlines, TO
> > DO list and so forth.
> >
> > In any case if we cannot find a proper solution in the pipeline, I am
> > not against moving those examples to kie-tools with some conditions.
> >
> > 1. they should offer the same level of independence as it is now.
> > Meaning that if I go to the folder of kie-tools/examples (or whatever
> > it is) and I do mvn clean install it should be able to build with the
> > 999-SNAPSHOT like other projects and take my local changes without any
> > further configuration.
> > 2. it should support the same level of CI per PR like we have now. Now
> > examples are one repo but the CI execution is split in 2 (quarkus and
> > spring boot)
> > 3. any other tool used by kie-tools like pnpn should be unnecessary to
> > build the examples.
> > 4. any version or snap version set by kie tools building tool can
> > override during building but cannot set on pom.
> > 5. any change in that structure without proper discussion should be
> > result in an inmediate rollback without any approval required.
> >
> > Doing this mantain the kogito-examples independence even if we have
> > them in kie-tools and for backender will have the same outcome and
> > daily work. If those criteria are not met, I am against moving
> > examples.
> >
> > Cheers :)
> >
> >
> > El jue, 9 ene 2025 a las 16:56, Alex Porcelli (<[email protected]>)
> escribió:
> > >
> > > I’m looking for this new thread, but I don’t think it would invalidate
> this
> > > thread.
> > >
> > > The scope of this thread is clear, and if you hang in Zulip you can see
> > > that users are completely lost with lack of any example…. I created my
> own
> > > example to help, but I don’t think this is the solution this community.
> > >
> > > I’d argue that the options are clear and also we defined, there’s an
> > > actionable plan and even commitment to execute.
> > >
> > > Alex
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 9, 2025 at 10:20 AM Paolo Bizzarri <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Alex,
> > > >
> > > > I do think that this is relevant for the discussion on the kogito
> examples.
> > > >
> > > > It is a necessary decision that we as a community we need to take
> before
> > > > making other modifications to the repo structure.
> > > >
> > > > Let's open a new thread so that first we can reach the consensus on
> which
> > > > should be the general structure of the KIE project - in term of
> > > > repositories - and then we can move forward identifying the actions
> > > > required to move into that direction and who can do this.
> > > >
> > > > Without this consensus things will keep getting discussed again and
> again,
> > > > which is something no one wants.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > P.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jan 9, 2025 at 2:36 PM Alex Porcelli <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Thank you, Tiago for steering back the thread to original problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please anyone feel free to open a new thread to discuss whatever
> you
> > > > > consider necessary. Just be thoughtful to write not only opinions,
> but
> > > > > detailed plans with actionable items. Ideally with some level of
> > > > commitment
> > > > > to an execution.
> > > > >
> > > > > -
> > > > > Alex
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jan 9, 2025 at 8:15 AM Tiago Bento <[email protected]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi everyone,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before I share my remarks about the "examples" topic in
> particular,
> > > > > > let me start by talking about a concept that I think is often
> > > > > > mistakenly used in this mailing list -- "users". Users are (the
> way I
> > > > > > see it at least) people who consume our software via our official
> > > > > > releases. They (mostly) DO NOT care about where or how the
> source code
> > > > > > is hosted, built, released, nor how "hard" or "inconvenient" it
> is to
> > > > > > develop the artifacts they actually depend on. Apache KIE users
> are
> > > > > > not Apache KIE developers. For a long time now, I think we might
> be
> > > > > > focusing our technical discussions too much on us (developers)
> and too
> > > > > > little on our users, who are the reason why we do all this in the
> > > > > > first place. In the end, we want our software to be used to solve
> > > > > > problems in the real world, and to help people outside of this
> little
> > > > > > inner circle of developers (us) to do so.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Alex created a thread to discuss a real problem our users are
> facing,
> > > > > > and we quickly turned it into a discussion on what's best for us
> > > > > > developers. Alex also came up with a real solution to the
> problem, and
> > > > > > we started debating the entire architecture of the codebase,
> with all
> > > > > > sorts of arguments mixed into the conversation. We won't ever go
> > > > > > anywhere if we continue discussing things this way. We can't
> halt all
> > > > > > technical/architectural discussions because we don't have a
> "global"
> > > > > > plan that will solve all our problems. So let's PLEASE take a
> step
> > > > > > back and talk about our focused subject on this thread: "How can
> we
> > > > > > allow our users consume meaningful example applications in an
> easy
> > > > > > way, for each release we do?".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I compiled the two options that have been shared so far:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Move the example applications from `kogito-examples` to
> > > > > > `kie-tools`'s `examples/` folder and create a new release job to
> > > > > > publish a ZIP containing each of the examples as a release
> artifact.
> > > > > > 2. Integrate `kogito-examples` into our release process so that
> it has
> > > > > > its versions properly updated and is tagged once a release is
> > > > > > approved, and keep everything else as is, without references to
> > > > > > artifacts coming from `kie-tools`.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I most like about option 1 is that there are no changes
> needed in
> > > > > > "the CI" (other than removing kogito-examples from it, of
> course, like
> > > > > > we did for kogito-images recently). Moving our examples to
> `kie-tools`
> > > > > > would also allow for them to correctly and safely depend on tools
> > > > > > artifacts, like the graphical Editors, Container images, and
> Quarkus
> > > > > > Dev UIs, which, as pointed out by Francisco, have become central
> to
> > > > > > the development of Decisions, Workflows, and Processes, and add a
> > > > > > great value for people exploring these examples applications.
> Users
> > > > > > would be able to consume these example applications in the same
> way
> > > > > > they consume other release artifacts, and we could even keep a
> > > > > > read-only repository where we publish these individual
> applications
> > > > > > for convenience (maybe `
> github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples`
> <http://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples>
> > > > <http://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples>
> > > > > <http://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples>?
> > > > > > <http://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples?>).
> > > > > > IMHO, trying to make a repository satisfy both developers and
> users
> > > > > > will always yield a sub-optimal setup.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This "CI" we're constantly referring to, to my best knowledge,
> is a
> > > > > > mix of PR checks (`build-chain` + GitHub Actions) and release
> > > > > > automations ("the Kogito framework" on Apache Jenkins) for the
> > > > > > `drools`, `optaplanner`, `kogito-runtimes`, `kogito-apps` (and
> more or
> > > > > > less `kogito-examples`) repos. I personally do not know how it
> all
> > > > > > works, but AFAIK `build-chain` was created by Enrique Cano back
> in Red
> > > > > > Hat days and has been referred to by our PR checks [1]; and "the
> > > > > > Kogito framework" on Apache Jenkins for release automation has
> always
> > > > > > imposed challenges to us in terms of maintainability. Rodrigo
> Antunes,
> > > > > > Alex, and I suffered quite a bit with it during the push for
> 10.0.0.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While I believe both `build-chain` and "the Kogito framework" on
> > > > > > Apache Jenkins to have been created by talented contributors with
> > > > > > their best intentions in mind, both have evolved to be places
> where no
> > > > > > one wants to go; tools that no one really wants to
> maintain/evolve. In
> > > > > > my view, both have become an increasing risk to the sustainable
> growth
> > > > > > of the Apache KIE community, so suggesting we delegate the
> solution to
> > > > > > a "new" problem to these systems (and therefore depending more on
> > > > > > them) doesn't really resonate with me, so I wouldn't go with
> option 2.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-pipelines/blob/main/.ci/actions/build-chain/action.yml#L36
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Jan 9, 2025 at 6:16 AM Gabriele Cardosi
> > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > > > I would like to quote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "So, first and foremost we should decide which is the ideal
> situation
> > > > > > where
> > > > > > > we want to move our repos - one repo, two repo, many repos.
> With
> > > > ideal
> > > > > > > situation I mean "what we think is the best architecture".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is a similar thread where we have been asked to approve
> a given
> > > > > > > proposal without having defined the overall strategy for
> code-base
> > > > > > > management.
> > > > > > > The lack of a clear architecture goal, IMO, affected a lot of
> our
> > > > > > > decisions, that at a given point became "unavoidable" while,
> > > > actually,
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > > were not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, to further the previous remarks, before going on with this
> > > > > > discussion,
> > > > > > > there are two topics to tackle once and for all
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. multiple repo vs mono-repo (global concern)
> > > > > > > 2. What is exactly the scope of our examples ? (specific to
> this
> > > > > thread)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > About the latter, we also had a longish thread last summer,
> about
> > > > > > > "standalone" or similar, that basically ended up on nothing
> because,
> > > > if
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > scope of something is not commonly clear and agreed upon, then
> it is
> > > > > > > impossible to get to a commonly shared solution.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > Gabriele
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Il giorno gio 9 gen 2025 alle ore 08:43 Jan Šťastný <
> > > > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > > ha scritto:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'd like to add some high-level details of "the CI changes".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From CI standpoint, adding kie-tools build into build-chain
> > > > > > configuration
> > > > > > > > for drools/optaplanner/kogito-runtimes/kogito-apps is
> possible.
> > > > There
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > be adjustments needed for the examples to reference a
> "local" image
> > > > > > created
> > > > > > > > during the same CI build, but that should be fine. The
> execution
> > > > > times
> > > > > > > > would be extended by the time needed to build kie-tools
> images due
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > repository changes up the stream (drools,...), but that's
> closing a
> > > > > > serious
> > > > > > > > gap we have in the builds, so I don't worry too much.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What implications this would have on kie-tools
> pr-check/nightly
> > > > > builds
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > don't know, it's a different CI solution from the rest.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But as mentioned by others here - we need to clarify what is
> our
> > > > > > ultimate
> > > > > > > > goal, which hugely affects CI.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have mentioned build-chain which is by many people
> regarded as
> > > > > > > > (un)necessary evil. I just want to highlight that when we
> keep many
> > > > > > > > repositories, then a solution without build-chain would be a
> > > > > > non-trivial
> > > > > > > > effort comparable to the initial CI configuration after the
> > > > > repository
> > > > > > > > transfer. Which I do not volunteer for.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > > Jan
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, 9 Jan 2025 at 07:20, Paolo Bizzarri <
> [email protected]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Alex,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I do not think this is the correct approach.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If we have a window with a broken glass, we can decide to
> use a
> > > > > > newspaper
> > > > > > > > > to close the hole because we do not have the money to
> purchase a
> > > > > new
> > > > > > > > glass.
> > > > > > > > > But this does not mean that using a newspaper is a good
> strategy
> > > > to
> > > > > > fix a
> > > > > > > > > window.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So, first and foremost we should decide which is the ideal
> > > > > situation
> > > > > > > > where
> > > > > > > > > we want to move our repos - one repo, two repo, many
> repos. With
> > > > > > ideal
> > > > > > > > > situation I mean "what we think is the best architecture".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Then we decide which steps we want to take in which
> direction.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > WRT resources - i.e. time of people for fixing this or
> that. It
> > > > is
> > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > hard to commit to "something" when it is not clear what is
> this
> > > > > > > > > "something". In our case, it is hard for me to commit to
> > > > > > "investigate CI
> > > > > > > > > options" when it is pretty unclear which is the situation
> we want
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > achieve.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As far as I remember, there have been multiple threads in
> the
> > > > past
> > > > > > months
> > > > > > > > > where it is pretty clear that there is no agreement on the
> > > > general
> > > > > > > > > structure of repos and dependencies.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Let's clarify first this, and then move forward.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Paolo
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 9:53 PM Alex Porcelli <
> [email protected]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'd agree to remove the link with tools if we'd remove
> the
> > > > tools
> > > > > > > > > > dependencies from the examples.... otherwise it creates
> the
> > > > > > cyclical
> > > > > > > > > > dependency - which was the reason Examples was excluded
> from
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > release.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'm also happy if anyone here volunteers to explore the
> > > > > adjustments
> > > > > > > > > > needed in the CI suggested by you... I'm also happy with
> that.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But in the end I expect that we get into a solution, in
> a way
> > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > another. I'd like to propose to use the general 72 hours
> (as
> > > > > > commonly
> > > > > > > > > > used in Apache) to see if we get any volunteers to take
> on CI
> > > > > > work. If
> > > > > > > > > > we can't get it, I'd suggest narrowing the options to
> either
> > > > > adjust
> > > > > > > > > > examples (remove dependencies to artifacts produced by
> tools
> > > > > repo)
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > move the examples somewhere else.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 3:41 PM Francisco Javier Tirado
> Sarti
> > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I would argue that examples depend more directly on
> runtimes,
> > > > > > apps or
> > > > > > > > > > > drools than in tools or images, basically because a
> > > > regression
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > tools
> > > > > > > > > > > code will hardly make any example IT to fail, but a
> > > > regression
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > runtimes,
> > > > > > > > > > > apps or drools will certainly cause almost all
> examples to
> > > > > > > > malfunction.
> > > > > > > > > > In
> > > > > > > > > > > fact, in most cases, tool dependency is just an
> optional
> > > > add-on
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > example, it's not part of the core functionality of the
> > > > > example.
> > > > > > A
> > > > > > > > > proof
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > that is that if the tool dependency is removed, most
> examples
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > > > work (without the fancy graphical tool, but will still
> work).
> > > > > So,
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > point of view, it is kind of strange that examples are
> moved
> > > > > > > > precisely
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > the repo they have the weaker link to (I'm not arguing
> to
> > > > > remove
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > dependency because I feel tools are a pivotal part of
> the
> > > > > > platform
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > makes a difference and we want to showcase that in our
> > > > > > examples). We
> > > > > > > > > also
> > > > > > > > > > > have a couple of examples that, trying to illustrate
> k8s
> > > > usage
> > > > > > (which
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > also pivotal, but not strictly needed, because the
> platform
> > > > > also
> > > > > > runs
> > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > baremetal), are really required to be executed after
> > > > everything
> > > > > > else
> > > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > > been compiled, tested and deployed.
> > > > > > > > > > > With that in mind, I think that moving stuff to the
> last
> > > > > > repository
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > chain (because I guess that's the reason Tools was the
> chosen
> > > > > > one)
> > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > be a kind of last resort, we need to explore the CI
> issue
> > > > > first.
> > > > > > > > Maybe
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > is not that hard (for a person with enough knowledge
> of the
> > > > > > internals
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > the CI pipeline, I'm clearly not that person) to
> execute
> > > > > > examples at
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > end of the CI pipeline. And definitely branching
> examples
> > > > repo
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > release
> > > > > > > > > > > at the same time than the other repos should not be a
> huge
> > > > > > problem
> > > > > > > > > either
> > > > > > > > > > > and I think it can be done independently of the CI
> order
> > > > > > question.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 8:17 PM Alex Porcelli <
> > > > [email protected]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco, I think some clarifications are needed.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > By “properly maintained,” I’m referring to examples
> that
> > > > are
> > > > > > fully
> > > > > > > > > > > > integrated into our CI pipeline and constantly
> updated to
> > > > > > track the
> > > > > > > > > > > > project’s versions, including release versions. In
> my view,
> > > > > > > > ensuring
> > > > > > > > > > > > that examples work not just with 999-SNAPSHOT but
> also
> > > > > released
> > > > > > > > > > > > versions is critical.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding Snapshot Usage, while having examples
> > > > automatically
> > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > 999-SNAPSHOT is helpful for early testing, we need
> to be
> > > > > > cautious.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Apache guidelines discourage the promotion of
> snapshot
> > > > > > artifacts
> > > > > > > > as a
> > > > > > > > > > > > primary means of distribution. Hence, it’s important
> to
> > > > offer
> > > > > > > > > examples
> > > > > > > > > > > > that align with actual release versions as well.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Current CI Limitations, although the examples repo is
> > > > > nominally
> > > > > > > > > > > > integrated into CI for the runtimes and apps, the
> setup is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > functioning as intended. Many examples require DevUI
> or
> > > > > > container
> > > > > > > > > > > > images built in the kie-tools repository, which
> aren’t
> > > > fully
> > > > > > > > captured
> > > > > > > > > > > > in the current pipeline. This makes it difficult to
> trust
> > > > CI
> > > > > > > > results
> > > > > > > > > > > > entirely.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And finally, my last proposal includes relocating the
> > > > > examples
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > kie-tools repo (under an /examples folder) so they
> can be
> > > > > > > > developed,
> > > > > > > > > > > > built, and tested alongside the assets they depend on
> > > > (DevUI,
> > > > > > > > > > > > container images, etc.). And part of this move, I
> commit
> > > > > > myself to
> > > > > > > > > > > > adjust the release CI to produce a dedicated
> “examples
> > > > > > artifact”.
> > > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > > should resolve the dependency and version-sync
> issues while
> > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > > > > allowing us to release the examples separately.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I hope these clarifications help. Please let me know
> if you
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > > > questions or concerns.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 4:55 AM Francisco Javier
> Tirado
> > > > Sarti
> > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Alex,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > We need to define "properly maintained" ;).
> Currently,
> > > > > > examples
> > > > > > > > > repo
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > integrated into the CI pipeline for runtimes and
> apps.
> > > > This
> > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > > that if
> > > > > > > > > > > > > some change in runtimes or apps repos breaks an
> example,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > PR
> > > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > red
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and won't be merged.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That's another layer of "security" from a quality
> > > > > > perspective and
> > > > > > > > > > forces
> > > > > > > > > > > > us
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to keep examples working.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > They are also a good way for community users to
> test the
> > > > > > latest
> > > > > > > > > > changes
> > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > main before they are released. If they checkout
> main
> > > > > branch,
> > > > > > > > since,
> > > > > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > > > > default, examples on main point to 999-SNAPSHOT
> version,
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > using
> > > > > > > > > > > > > latest snapshot, which is a good alternative for
> users
> > > > that
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wait  for a release to perform experiments.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, I think your latest proposal is great.
> We keep
> > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is and release examples separately.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks a lot.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 1:17 AM Alex Porcelli <
> > > > > > [email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your perspective, Francisco.
> You
> > > > > raise a
> > > > > > > > valid
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > point about user experience; however having a
> dedicated
> > > > > > > > examples
> > > > > > > > > > repo
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn’t necessarily help if it isn’t properly
> > > > > > maintained—what’s
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > purpose of an examples repository if it doesn’t
> > > > reference
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > release?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > One idea to address this, which we could borrow
> from
> > > > our
> > > > > > IBM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > colleagues, is to create a separate release
> artifact
> > > > for
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > examples.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > We could then publish the artifact content into a
> > > > > dedicated
> > > > > > > > > > repository
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > manually whenever we cut a release. This way:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Maintenance & Integration: We still integrate
> the
> > > > > > examples in
> > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > main build process (so they remain aligned with
> each
> > > > > > release).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - User-Friendly Browsing: At the same time, the
> > > > > standalone
> > > > > > > > > examples
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > repository remains easy to browse, avoiding the
> > > > > complexity
> > > > > > of a
> > > > > > > > > > large,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > all-in-one codebase.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This approach keeps the examples maintained in
> sync
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > releases
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > while offering a simpler path for users to find
> and
> > > > > explore
> > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > without wading through the entire repository
> > > > > > structure—which
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > overwhelming.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I volunteer myself to adjust the CI to produce
> this
> > > > > > artifact in
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > release pipeline.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 6:51 AM Francisco Javier
> Tirado
> > > > > > Sarti
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can see why it is easier, from a technical
> point of
> > > > > > view,
> > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > examples rely on tooling, to move all examples
> to
> > > > > tooling
> > > > > > > > repo.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, I hardly see why this makes users'
> > > > experience
> > > > > > > > better.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me elaborate, With examples repo, we
> currently
> > > > > have a
> > > > > > > > place
> > > > > > > > > > where
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > users
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can browse all examples starting from the repo
> root.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With tooling repo, I guess they will start
> browsing
> > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > > examples
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > directory?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we are going for technical simplicity, I
> guess it
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > probably
> > > > > > > > > > > > time to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > coherent and move all KIE content under the
> same repo
> > > > > > (I'm
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > it,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the feeling that there is a majority in
> favour
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > that,
> > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > probably
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time to vote?).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which I feel is really awkward is to have
> different
> > > > > > > > strategies
> > > > > > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > same label (some content in some separate
> repos and
> > > > > > gradually
> > > > > > > > > > moving
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything to a repo named "tools" which is not
> > > > really
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > > > > "tools"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anymore)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 5:26 PM Jason Porter
> > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know it makes for a larger repo, but I’m
> all for
> > > > > > fewer
> > > > > > > > > > > > repositories,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an easier setup for not only contributors,
> but all
> > > > > > users.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason Porter
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Software Engineer
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He/Him/His
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IBM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Alex Porcelli <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, January 6, 2025 at 03:01
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [DISCUSS] Missing
> > > > kogito-examples
> > > > > > > > update
> > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10.0.0 release!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Happy new 2025, everyone!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As we discussed when we started the 10.0.0
> release
> > > > > > process,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kogito-examples repository was neither
> included in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > release
> > > > > > > > > > nor
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > fully
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > integrated into CI. Although some PR checks
> > > > consider
> > > > > > > > > > > > kogito-examples,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gap ultimately led to absent examples for the
> > > > 10.0.0
> > > > > > > > release.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - The stable branch remains on versions 1.44
> and
> > > > 8.44
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - The main branch is on 999-SNAPSHOT
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given that many of the kogito-examples rely
> on
> > > > > > container
> > > > > > > > > > images and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dev UI,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we'd need to incorporate the repository into
> our CI
> > > > > > system
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > improve
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > current situation, which might take some
> time and
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > > likely
> > > > > > > > > > > > impact
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > upcoming releases.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alternatively, we could move the examples to
> > > > > kie-tools
> > > > > > (a
> > > > > > > > > repo
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > already
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hosts all images and DevUI) so no CI changes
> would
> > > > be
> > > > > > > > > required.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would love to hear your thoughts,
> alternative
> > > > > ideas,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > concerns
> > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can have an actionable plan to do better in
> the
> > > > next
> > > > > > > > release.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
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