Thanks Dominik! Il giorno mer 15 gen 2025 alle ore 09:12 Dominik Hanak < [email protected]> ha scritto:
> Hello everyone, > > I am not sure if there is some sort of consensus yet, but let me at least > summarize > and go on from there, it seems the traffic here is settled so I think we > should move on to > do a proposal in order to resolve this topic. > > First and foremost, I created issue > <https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-examples/issues/2050> in > examples so that we can easily track the work happening/needed to be done. > > From my understanding there are 2 issues this thread brought up and tried > to solve. > > 1. Missing examples for customers who are consuming our technology > stack. > 2. Missing examples integration with our CI & generally undefined > development process for examples after the apache kie move and > architecture > discussions had started. > > Focus of my follow up here is issue number 1. Issue number 2 is up for > grabs if anyone wants to take responsibility. > > With the regards to issue 1, do you agree that I create a new proposal to > resolve this situation with the following steps: > ( Details will be put into the proposal, I am keeping it high-level here ) > > 1. Investigate the example upgrade with `10.0.0` build, see if the build > is stable, test pass etc. > 2. Establish a common branch name pattern for examples stabilized with a > particular release. > 3. Contribute a PR with the stabilized examples and updated README file. > 4. Update the README file for example of stable branch > 5. Confirm with the community that the current set of examples is > expected and from SME's their examples are working > 6. Make the stable branch (whatever we decide on the name ) a default > branch for examples > 7. Announce the examples availability to the community. > > Let me know if this works for you if I do not get an explicit -1 for this, > I ll proceed with the proposal > on Friday 17th. > > Best regards, > > Dominik > > > > On Fri, 10 Jan 2025 at 16:34, Alex Porcelli <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Francisco, > > > > The steps described is for developers work with the examples. > > > > For end user to consume, the content of the release artifact will be > pushed > > to the examples repository (manually or automated) as described in my > > proposal number 3. > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 9:19 AM Francisco Javier Tirado Sarti < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hi Alex, > > > Im wondering how is suppose to be easier for users to > > > > > > $ git clone kie-tools > > > $ cd kie-tools > > > $ pnpm bootstrap -F runtime-examples... > > > $ cd examples/runtime-examples > > > (to some extent at this point you can interact with the examples as a > > > standalone thing) > > > $ idea/code/eclipse . > > > $ mvn clean compile, > > > > > > rather than, as Dominik just proposed, do > > > > > > 1. git clone [email protected]:apache/incubator-kie-kogito-examples.git > > > 2. git checkout stable-10.0.0 > > > 3. cd the-best-example-in-the-world > > > 4. Follow README instructions to work with it > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:06 PM Alex Porcelli <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > Enrique, unfortunately this is not entirely possible. The only reason > > > > to move the examples under the kie-tools repo is because of examples > > > > depending on kie-tools artifacts, so to properly build the examples > > > > you have first build the dependencies. > > > > > > > > To work with the examples the steps would be something along the > > > > following lines: > > > > > > > > $ git clone kie-tools > > > > $ cd kie-tools > > > > $ pnpm bootstrap -F runtime-examples... > > > > $ cd examples/runtime-examples > > > > (to some extent at this point you can interact with the examples as a > > > > standalone thing) > > > > $ idea/code/eclipse . > > > > $ mvn clean compile, > > > > > > > > (this is not 100% precise because it depends on how the examples are > > > > moved etc... but hopefully you get the idea). > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:55 AM Enrique Gonzalez Martinez > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > Regarding this topic as some of the people mentioned before this > is a > > > > > matter of proper pipeline. Moving the examples to kie tools should > be > > > > > a temporary solution but we know that there is nothing more > permanent > > > > > than a temporary solution as everybody will get back to deadlines, > TO > > > > > DO list and so forth. > > > > > > > > > > In any case if we cannot find a proper solution in the pipeline, I > am > > > > > not against moving those examples to kie-tools with some > conditions. > > > > > > > > > > 1. they should offer the same level of independence as it is now. > > > > > Meaning that if I go to the folder of kie-tools/examples (or > whatever > > > > > it is) and I do mvn clean install it should be able to build with > the > > > > > 999-SNAPSHOT like other projects and take my local changes without > > any > > > > > further configuration. > > > > > 2. it should support the same level of CI per PR like we have now. > > Now > > > > > examples are one repo but the CI execution is split in 2 (quarkus > and > > > > > spring boot) > > > > > 3. any other tool used by kie-tools like pnpn should be unnecessary > > to > > > > > build the examples. > > > > > 4. any version or snap version set by kie tools building tool can > > > > > override during building but cannot set on pom. > > > > > 5. any change in that structure without proper discussion should be > > > > > result in an inmediate rollback without any approval required. > > > > > > > > > > Doing this mantain the kogito-examples independence even if we have > > > > > them in kie-tools and for backender will have the same outcome and > > > > > daily work. If those criteria are not met, I am against moving > > > > > examples. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > El jue, 9 ene 2025 a las 16:56, Alex Porcelli (< > [email protected] > > >) > > > > escribió: > > > > > > > > > > > > I’m looking for this new thread, but I don’t think it would > > > invalidate > > > > this > > > > > > thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > The scope of this thread is clear, and if you hang in Zulip you > can > > > see > > > > > > that users are completely lost with lack of any example…. I > created > > > my > > > > own > > > > > > example to help, but I don’t think this is the solution this > > > community. > > > > > > > > > > > > I’d argue that the options are clear and also we defined, there’s > > an > > > > > > actionable plan and even commitment to execute. > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 9, 2025 at 10:20 AM Paolo Bizzarri < > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do think that this is relevant for the discussion on the > kogito > > > > examples. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a necessary decision that we as a community we need to > take > > > > before > > > > > > > making other modifications to the repo structure. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's open a new thread so that first we can reach the > consensus > > on > > > > which > > > > > > > should be the general structure of the KIE project - in term of > > > > > > > repositories - and then we can move forward identifying the > > actions > > > > > > > required to move into that direction and who can do this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Without this consensus things will keep getting discussed again > > and > > > > again, > > > > > > > which is something no one wants. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 9, 2025 at 2:36 PM Alex Porcelli <[email protected] > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, Tiago for steering back the thread to original > > > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please anyone feel free to open a new thread to discuss > > whatever > > > > you > > > > > > > > consider necessary. Just be thoughtful to write not only > > > opinions, > > > > but > > > > > > > > detailed plans with actionable items. Ideally with some level > > of > > > > > > > commitment > > > > > > > > to an execution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 9, 2025 at 8:15 AM Tiago Bento < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Before I share my remarks about the "examples" topic in > > > > particular, > > > > > > > > > let me start by talking about a concept that I think is > often > > > > > > > > > mistakenly used in this mailing list -- "users". Users are > > (the > > > > way I > > > > > > > > > see it at least) people who consume our software via our > > > official > > > > > > > > > releases. They (mostly) DO NOT care about where or how the > > > > source code > > > > > > > > > is hosted, built, released, nor how "hard" or > "inconvenient" > > it > > > > is to > > > > > > > > > develop the artifacts they actually depend on. Apache KIE > > users > > > > are > > > > > > > > > not Apache KIE developers. For a long time now, I think we > > > might > > > > be > > > > > > > > > focusing our technical discussions too much on us > > (developers) > > > > and too > > > > > > > > > little on our users, who are the reason why we do all this > in > > > the > > > > > > > > > first place. In the end, we want our software to be used to > > > solve > > > > > > > > > problems in the real world, and to help people outside of > > this > > > > little > > > > > > > > > inner circle of developers (us) to do so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex created a thread to discuss a real problem our users > are > > > > facing, > > > > > > > > > and we quickly turned it into a discussion on what's best > for > > > us > > > > > > > > > developers. Alex also came up with a real solution to the > > > > problem, and > > > > > > > > > we started debating the entire architecture of the > codebase, > > > > with all > > > > > > > > > sorts of arguments mixed into the conversation. We won't > ever > > > go > > > > > > > > > anywhere if we continue discussing things this way. We > can't > > > > halt all > > > > > > > > > technical/architectural discussions because we don't have a > > > > "global" > > > > > > > > > plan that will solve all our problems. So let's PLEASE > take a > > > > step > > > > > > > > > back and talk about our focused subject on this thread: > "How > > > can > > > > we > > > > > > > > > allow our users consume meaningful example applications in > an > > > > easy > > > > > > > > > way, for each release we do?". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I compiled the two options that have been shared so far: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Move the example applications from `kogito-examples` to > > > > > > > > > `kie-tools`'s `examples/` folder and create a new release > job > > > to > > > > > > > > > publish a ZIP containing each of the examples as a release > > > > artifact. > > > > > > > > > 2. Integrate `kogito-examples` into our release process so > > that > > > > it has > > > > > > > > > its versions properly updated and is tagged once a release > is > > > > > > > > > approved, and keep everything else as is, without > references > > to > > > > > > > > > artifacts coming from `kie-tools`. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I most like about option 1 is that there are no > changes > > > > needed in > > > > > > > > > "the CI" (other than removing kogito-examples from it, of > > > > course, like > > > > > > > > > we did for kogito-images recently). Moving our examples to > > > > `kie-tools` > > > > > > > > > would also allow for them to correctly and safely depend on > > > tools > > > > > > > > > artifacts, like the graphical Editors, Container images, > and > > > > Quarkus > > > > > > > > > Dev UIs, which, as pointed out by Francisco, have become > > > central > > > > to > > > > > > > > > the development of Decisions, Workflows, and Processes, and > > > add a > > > > > > > > > great value for people exploring these examples > applications. > > > > Users > > > > > > > > > would be able to consume these example applications in the > > same > > > > way > > > > > > > > > they consume other release artifacts, and we could even > keep > > a > > > > > > > > > read-only repository where we publish these individual > > > > applications > > > > > > > > > for convenience (maybe ` > > > > github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples` > <http://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples> > > <http://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples> > > > <http://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples> > > > > <http://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples> > > > > > > > <http://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples> > > > > > > > > <http://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples>? > > > > > > > > > <http://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-examples?>). > > > > > > > > > IMHO, trying to make a repository satisfy both developers > and > > > > users > > > > > > > > > will always yield a sub-optimal setup. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This "CI" we're constantly referring to, to my best > > knowledge, > > > > is a > > > > > > > > > mix of PR checks (`build-chain` + GitHub Actions) and > release > > > > > > > > > automations ("the Kogito framework" on Apache Jenkins) for > > the > > > > > > > > > `drools`, `optaplanner`, `kogito-runtimes`, `kogito-apps` > > (and > > > > more or > > > > > > > > > less `kogito-examples`) repos. I personally do not know how > > it > > > > all > > > > > > > > > works, but AFAIK `build-chain` was created by Enrique Cano > > back > > > > in Red > > > > > > > > > Hat days and has been referred to by our PR checks [1]; and > > > "the > > > > > > > > > Kogito framework" on Apache Jenkins for release automation > > has > > > > always > > > > > > > > > imposed challenges to us in terms of maintainability. > Rodrigo > > > > Antunes, > > > > > > > > > Alex, and I suffered quite a bit with it during the push > for > > > > 10.0.0. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I believe both `build-chain` and "the Kogito > framework" > > > on > > > > > > > > > Apache Jenkins to have been created by talented > contributors > > > with > > > > > > > > > their best intentions in mind, both have evolved to be > places > > > > where no > > > > > > > > > one wants to go; tools that no one really wants to > > > > maintain/evolve. In > > > > > > > > > my view, both have become an increasing risk to the > > sustainable > > > > growth > > > > > > > > > of the Apache KIE community, so suggesting we delegate the > > > > solution to > > > > > > > > > a "new" problem to these systems (and therefore depending > > more > > > on > > > > > > > > > them) doesn't really resonate with me, so I wouldn't go > with > > > > option 2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/apache/incubator-kie-kogito-pipelines/blob/main/.ci/actions/build-chain/action.yml#L36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 9, 2025 at 6:16 AM Gabriele Cardosi > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > I would like to quote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "So, first and foremost we should decide which is the > ideal > > > > situation > > > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > > > we want to move our repos - one repo, two repo, many > repos. > > > > With > > > > > > > ideal > > > > > > > > > > situation I mean "what we think is the best > architecture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a similar thread where we have been asked to > > approve > > > > a given > > > > > > > > > > proposal without having defined the overall strategy for > > > > code-base > > > > > > > > > > management. > > > > > > > > > > The lack of a clear architecture goal, IMO, affected a > lot > > of > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > decisions, that at a given point became "unavoidable" > > while, > > > > > > > actually, > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > were not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, to further the previous remarks, before going on with > > > this > > > > > > > > > discussion, > > > > > > > > > > there are two topics to tackle once and for all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. multiple repo vs mono-repo (global concern) > > > > > > > > > > 2. What is exactly the scope of our examples ? (specific > to > > > > this > > > > > > > > thread) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About the latter, we also had a longish thread last > summer, > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > "standalone" or similar, that basically ended up on > nothing > > > > because, > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > scope of something is not commonly clear and agreed upon, > > > then > > > > it is > > > > > > > > > > impossible to get to a commonly shared solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best > > > > > > > > > > Gabriele > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Il giorno gio 9 gen 2025 alle ore 08:43 Jan Šťastný < > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > ha scritto: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd like to add some high-level details of "the CI > > > changes". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From CI standpoint, adding kie-tools build into > > build-chain > > > > > > > > > configuration > > > > > > > > > > > for drools/optaplanner/kogito-runtimes/kogito-apps is > > > > possible. > > > > > > > There > > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > > be adjustments needed for the examples to reference a > > > > "local" image > > > > > > > > > created > > > > > > > > > > > during the same CI build, but that should be fine. The > > > > execution > > > > > > > > times > > > > > > > > > > > would be extended by the time needed to build kie-tools > > > > images due > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > repository changes up the stream (drools,...), but > that's > > > > closing a > > > > > > > > > serious > > > > > > > > > > > gap we have in the builds, so I don't worry too much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What implications this would have on kie-tools > > > > pr-check/nightly > > > > > > > > builds > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > don't know, it's a different CI solution from the rest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But as mentioned by others here - we need to clarify > what > > > is > > > > our > > > > > > > > > ultimate > > > > > > > > > > > goal, which hugely affects CI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have mentioned build-chain which is by many people > > > > regarded as > > > > > > > > > > > (un)necessary evil. I just want to highlight that when > we > > > > keep many > > > > > > > > > > > repositories, then a solution without build-chain would > > be > > > a > > > > > > > > > non-trivial > > > > > > > > > > > effort comparable to the initial CI configuration after > > the > > > > > > > > repository > > > > > > > > > > > transfer. Which I do not volunteer for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > Jan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 9 Jan 2025 at 07:20, Paolo Bizzarri < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not think this is the correct approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we have a window with a broken glass, we can > decide > > to > > > > use a > > > > > > > > > newspaper > > > > > > > > > > > > to close the hole because we do not have the money to > > > > purchase a > > > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > > > > glass. > > > > > > > > > > > > But this does not mean that using a newspaper is a > good > > > > strategy > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > fix a > > > > > > > > > > > > window. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, first and foremost we should decide which is the > > > ideal > > > > > > > > situation > > > > > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > > > > > we want to move our repos - one repo, two repo, many > > > > repos. With > > > > > > > > > ideal > > > > > > > > > > > > situation I mean "what we think is the best > > > architecture". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then we decide which steps we want to take in which > > > > direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WRT resources - i.e. time of people for fixing this > or > > > > that. It > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > very > > > > > > > > > > > > hard to commit to "something" when it is not clear > what > > > is > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > "something". In our case, it is hard for me to commit > > to > > > > > > > > > "investigate CI > > > > > > > > > > > > options" when it is pretty unclear which is the > > situation > > > > we want > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > achieve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as I remember, there have been multiple > threads > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > past > > > > > > > > > months > > > > > > > > > > > > where it is pretty clear that there is no agreement > on > > > the > > > > > > > general > > > > > > > > > > > > structure of repos and dependencies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's clarify first this, and then move forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paolo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 9:53 PM Alex Porcelli < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd agree to remove the link with tools if we'd > > remove > > > > the > > > > > > > tools > > > > > > > > > > > > > dependencies from the examples.... otherwise it > > creates > > > > the > > > > > > > > > cyclical > > > > > > > > > > > > > dependency - which was the reason Examples was > > excluded > > > > from > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > release. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm also happy if anyone here volunteers to explore > > the > > > > > > > > adjustments > > > > > > > > > > > > > needed in the CI suggested by you... I'm also happy > > > with > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But in the end I expect that we get into a > solution, > > in > > > > a way > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > > another. I'd like to propose to use the general 72 > > > hours > > > > (as > > > > > > > > > commonly > > > > > > > > > > > > > used in Apache) to see if we get any volunteers to > > take > > > > on CI > > > > > > > > > work. If > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't get it, I'd suggest narrowing the options > to > > > > either > > > > > > > > adjust > > > > > > > > > > > > > examples (remove dependencies to artifacts produced > > by > > > > tools > > > > > > > > repo) > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > > move the examples somewhere else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 3:41 PM Francisco Javier > > Tirado > > > > Sarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would argue that examples depend more directly > on > > > > runtimes, > > > > > > > > > apps or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > drools than in tools or images, basically > because a > > > > > > > regression > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > tools > > > > > > > > > > > > > > code will hardly make any example IT to fail, > but a > > > > > > > regression > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > runtimes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > apps or drools will certainly cause almost all > > > > examples to > > > > > > > > > > > malfunction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > In > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact, in most cases, tool dependency is just an > > > > optional > > > > > > > add-on > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > example, it's not part of the core functionality > of > > > the > > > > > > > > example. > > > > > > > > > A > > > > > > > > > > > > proof > > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that is that if the tool dependency is removed, > > most > > > > examples > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > > still > > > > > > > > > > > > > > work (without the fancy graphical tool, but will > > > still > > > > work). > > > > > > > > So, > > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > point of view, it is kind of strange that > examples > > > are > > > > moved > > > > > > > > > > > precisely > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the repo they have the weaker link to (I'm not > > > arguing > > > > to > > > > > > > > remove > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dependency because I feel tools are a pivotal > part > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > > > platform > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > makes a difference and we want to showcase that > in > > > our > > > > > > > > > examples). We > > > > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have a couple of examples that, trying to > > illustrate > > > > k8s > > > > > > > usage > > > > > > > > > (which > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also pivotal, but not strictly needed, because > the > > > > platform > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > runs > > > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > baremetal), are really required to be executed > > after > > > > > > > everything > > > > > > > > > else > > > > > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > > > > > > been compiled, tested and deployed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With that in mind, I think that moving stuff to > the > > > > last > > > > > > > > > repository > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chain (because I guess that's the reason Tools > was > > > the > > > > chosen > > > > > > > > > one) > > > > > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be a kind of last resort, we need to explore the > CI > > > > issue > > > > > > > > first. > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe > > > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not that hard (for a person with enough > > knowledge > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > internals > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the CI pipeline, I'm clearly not that person) to > > > > execute > > > > > > > > > examples at > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > end of the CI pipeline. And definitely branching > > > > examples > > > > > > > repo > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > release > > > > > > > > > > > > > > at the same time than the other repos should not > > be a > > > > huge > > > > > > > > > problem > > > > > > > > > > > > either > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I think it can be done independently of the > CI > > > > order > > > > > > > > > question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 8:17 PM Alex Porcelli < > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Francisco, I think some clarifications are > > needed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By “properly maintained,” I’m referring to > > examples > > > > that > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > fully > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > integrated into our CI pipeline and constantly > > > > updated to > > > > > > > > > track the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project’s versions, including release versions. > > In > > > > my view, > > > > > > > > > > > ensuring > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that examples work not just with 999-SNAPSHOT > but > > > > also > > > > > > > > released > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > versions is critical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding Snapshot Usage, while having examples > > > > > > > automatically > > > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 999-SNAPSHOT is helpful for early testing, we > > need > > > > to be > > > > > > > > > cautious. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache guidelines discourage the promotion of > > > > snapshot > > > > > > > > > artifacts > > > > > > > > > > > as a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > primary means of distribution. Hence, it’s > > > important > > > > to > > > > > > > offer > > > > > > > > > > > > examples > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that align with actual release versions as > well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current CI Limitations, although the examples > > repo > > > is > > > > > > > > nominally > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > integrated into CI for the runtimes and apps, > the > > > > setup is > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > functioning as intended. Many examples require > > > DevUI > > > > or > > > > > > > > > container > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > images built in the kie-tools repository, which > > > > aren’t > > > > > > > fully > > > > > > > > > > > captured > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the current pipeline. This makes it > difficult > > to > > > > trust > > > > > > > CI > > > > > > > > > > > results > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > entirely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And finally, my last proposal includes > relocating > > > the > > > > > > > > examples > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kie-tools repo (under an /examples folder) so > > they > > > > can be > > > > > > > > > > > developed, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > built, and tested alongside the assets they > > depend > > > on > > > > > > > (DevUI, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > container images, etc.). And part of this > move, I > > > > commit > > > > > > > > > myself to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > adjust the release CI to produce a dedicated > > > > “examples > > > > > > > > > artifact”. > > > > > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should resolve the dependency and version-sync > > > > issues while > > > > > > > > > still > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allowing us to release the examples separately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope these clarifications help. Please let me > > > know > > > > if you > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > questions or concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 4:55 AM Francisco Javier > > > > Tirado > > > > > > > Sarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We need to define "properly maintained" ;). > > > > Currently, > > > > > > > > > examples > > > > > > > > > > > > repo > > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > integrated into the CI pipeline for runtimes > > and > > > > apps. > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > means > > > > > > > > > > > > > that if > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > some change in runtimes or apps repos breaks > an > > > > example, > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > PR > > > > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > red > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and won't be merged. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's another layer of "security" from a > > quality > > > > > > > > > perspective and > > > > > > > > > > > > > forces > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to keep examples working. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are also a good way for community users > to > > > > test the > > > > > > > > > latest > > > > > > > > > > > > > changes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > main before they are released. If they > checkout > > > > main > > > > > > > > branch, > > > > > > > > > > > since, > > > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > default, examples on main point to > 999-SNAPSHOT > > > > version, > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > using > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > latest snapshot, which is a good alternative > > for > > > > users > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > > want > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wait for a release to perform experiments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, I think your latest proposal is > > great. > > > > We keep > > > > > > > > > > > > everything > > > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is and release examples separately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks a lot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 1:17 AM Alex Porcelli > < > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your perspective, > > Francisco. > > > > You > > > > > > > > raise a > > > > > > > > > > > valid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > point about user experience; however > having a > > > > dedicated > > > > > > > > > > > examples > > > > > > > > > > > > > repo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn’t necessarily help if it isn’t > properly > > > > > > > > > maintained—what’s > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > purpose of an examples repository if it > > doesn’t > > > > > > > reference > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > current > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > release? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One idea to address this, which we could > > borrow > > > > from > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > IBM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > colleagues, is to create a separate release > > > > artifact > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > examples. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We could then publish the artifact content > > > into a > > > > > > > > dedicated > > > > > > > > > > > > > repository > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > manually whenever we cut a release. This > way: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Maintenance & Integration: We still > > integrate > > > > the > > > > > > > > > examples in > > > > > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > main build process (so they remain aligned > > with > > > > each > > > > > > > > > release). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - User-Friendly Browsing: At the same time, > > the > > > > > > > > standalone > > > > > > > > > > > > examples > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > repository remains easy to browse, avoiding > > the > > > > > > > > complexity > > > > > > > > > of a > > > > > > > > > > > > > large, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > all-in-one codebase. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This approach keeps the examples maintained > > in > > > > sync > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > releases > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > while offering a simpler path for users to > > find > > > > and > > > > > > > > explore > > > > > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without wading through the entire > repository > > > > > > > > > structure—which > > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overwhelming. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I volunteer myself to adjust the CI to > > produce > > > > this > > > > > > > > > artifact in > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > release pipeline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 6:51 AM Francisco > > Javier > > > > Tirado > > > > > > > > > Sarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can see why it is easier, from a > > technical > > > > point of > > > > > > > > > view, > > > > > > > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > examples rely on tooling, to move all > > > examples > > > > to > > > > > > > > tooling > > > > > > > > > > > repo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, I hardly see why this makes > users' > > > > > > > experience > > > > > > > > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me elaborate, With examples repo, we > > > > currently > > > > > > > > have a > > > > > > > > > > > place > > > > > > > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > users > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can browse all examples starting from the > > > repo > > > > root. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With tooling repo, I guess they will > start > > > > browsing > > > > > > > > under > > > > > > > > > > > > > examples > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > directory? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we are going for technical > simplicity, I > > > > guess it > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > coherent and move all KIE content under > the > > > > same repo > > > > > > > > > (I'm > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have the feeling that there is a > majority > > > in > > > > favour > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > that, > > > > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time to vote?). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which I feel is really awkward is to have > > > > different > > > > > > > > > > > strategies > > > > > > > > > > > > > under > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > same label (some content in some separate > > > > repos and > > > > > > > > > gradually > > > > > > > > > > > > > moving > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everything to a repo named "tools" which > is > > > not > > > > > > > really > > > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > > > > > "tools" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anymore) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 5:26 PM Jason > Porter > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know it makes for a larger repo, but > > I’m > > > > all for > > > > > > > > > fewer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > repositories, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an easier setup for not only > > contributors, > > > > but all > > > > > > > > > users. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason Porter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Software Engineer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He/Him/His > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IBM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Alex Porcelli < > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, January 6, 2025 at 03:01 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] < > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [DISCUSS] Missing > > > > > > > kogito-examples > > > > > > > > > > > update > > > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10.0.0 release! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Happy new 2025, everyone! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As we discussed when we started the > > 10.0.0 > > > > release > > > > > > > > > process, > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kogito-examples repository was neither > > > > included in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > release > > > > > > > > > > > > > nor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fully > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > integrated into CI. Although some PR > > checks > > > > > > > consider > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kogito-examples, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gap ultimately led to absent examples > for > > > the > > > > > > > 10.0.0 > > > > > > > > > > > release. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - The stable branch remains on versions > > > 1.44 > > > > and > > > > > > > 8.44 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - The main branch is on 999-SNAPSHOT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Given that many of the kogito-examples > > rely > > > > on > > > > > > > > > container > > > > > > > > > > > > > images and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dev UI, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we'd need to incorporate the repository > > > into > > > > our CI > > > > > > > > > system > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > improve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > current situation, which might take > some > > > > time and > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > likely > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > impact > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > upcoming releases. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alternatively, we could move the > examples > > > to > > > > > > > > kie-tools > > > > > > > > > (a > > > > > > > > > > > > repo > > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hosts all images and DevUI) so no CI > > > changes > > > > would > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > required. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would love to hear your thoughts, > > > > alternative > > > > > > > > ideas, > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > > concerns > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can have an actionable plan to do > better > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > next > > > > > > > > > > > release. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
