On 24-Apr-09, at 12:21 AM, nicolas de loof wrote:
Hi guys,
The previous translation sounds good, far better that any english I
could
write by myself, as you may notice in following lines ;).
First of all, this blog was not expected to be offensive. If you
consider it
such please accept my apology, and feel free to attach any comment
to expose
your point of view.
Really. An opening title of "The Hostile Takeover of Maven", siting
myself in the first sentence and then listing a set of things for
which make little sense to me so I'll address them as I believe by
demonstration of your own behavior you have done exactly as I have.
These sensationalist titles and blogs also immediately make me think
of consultants abusing their association with the Maven project for
their own personal gain and notoriety. It's certainly not helping the
project. You can see the Ivy guy reacting exactly as you planned I'm
sure. And, of course, by my association with the Maven project I am
trying to further Sonatype. That is nothing I'm ashamed and I don't
believe it's bad for the project either. I think I have just a tad
more justification then you for doing so. This is above all else a
meritocracy. People often forget here that it is a consensus among
those who have done work, not just a consensus.
You, Nicolas, have 3 commits on the core of Maven, two of which we
rolled back because you engaged in zero discussion with the list and
made changes that were inappropriate. You actually made them to
benefit Archiva which is a project you work on it while not thinking
of the greater impact. So the exact thing what you are insinuating is
_exactly_ what you did. I know how I work but I don't do one thing and
say another. Especially about someone else on a public blog about a
project I'm barely involved in -- and I site the single commit you
have on the code base you're expounding about. You came into this
project by association with Archiva and not by way of your sustained
contribution to Maven. Which may explain the first comment in your blog.
- The creation of Nexus is just my personal project working on it with
a bunch of my friends.
I don't feel that Archiva is something I wanted to be involved with. I
preferred to take the oldest known codebase of a Maven repository
manager (maven proxy I don't consider a manager) and support that
effort. There were also people in Archiva that I frankly didn't want
to work with. These are choices that we are all free to make and I
really don't think that the existence of Nexus has harmed anyone in
the Maven community. We have very aggressive schedules, we are very
focused and we are very vocal. I see none of those things as a
detriment to Maven users.
- The development of Plexus
Plexus is not a Maven project, it's not even an Apache project. But if
you actually paid attention to the mailing lists of the code base you
would see code is rapidly being culled and replaced in the hopes of
being able to swap in Guice. You can get involved in Plexus just like
you would any external project. Do you complain to the Spring
developers when they change the internal dependency injection strategy?
- The overhaul of the transport
Have you even looked at the code to see how it works? It's not on by
default, and as I said to Brett a couple days ago and on the mailing
list a couple months ago that there are no new features in 3.x. I
don't think you understand. The only two people who really merit a
decision in this process are really Brett, Brian and Mark because they
have each made very significant effort with the code related to that
part of Maven and it's an incredible amount of work. Oleg has also
sent many emails and there are lots of documents in the wiki. So there
is amble place to make comments but this is not something you can just
dabble in and yes it's hard to keep up when there are people that are
working on it full time. If you're interested ask, or as Brett as for
a summary (politely I might add) I will do that.
My blog is only for personnal opinions and uses a
caricatural style to get reader post comments. If I hurted you I can
post an
eratum with my apologies, this was not expected to be read at first
degree.
For this reason I choosed this title in relation with current
finantial
activities around SUN & Java
All I can say is not very appropriate. I'll keep the rest of the
comments to myself and trust me I'm biting my tongue.
During JUG sessions, many people ask me about maven roadmap, and how
the
project development is planed. Most of them are not used with
professional
opensource, and ask me how a company like Sonatype can get money from
opensource.
Probably no different then a consultant trying to make money off open
source. Through involvement and experience you gain the trust of
people who want to use the projects you work on. It's not that
complicated. You appear to clearly mention that you're an "Apache
Maven Committer" on your LinkedIn page so I'm sure what you are trying
to do is not all together different then what Sonatype is trying to do.
What makes you assume we're making money off Maven? Sonatype's
business model does have some training and revenue components but
we're primarily product sales and we do almost no consulting unless it
relates to our products. So unlike consultants we have less reason to
push in specific changes that benefit one client. I think we are
actually in a position where we don't have to do questionable things.
The massive changes I have in Maven that were client specific I have
never committed.
This blog article has been written in reply to such discutions. It
tries to
reflect how Sonatype guys work full-time on maven 3 and related
ecosystem to
be "the maven company". As you may notice, I compare this business
model to
Spring and JBoss way to opensource : open license, project open to
contribution, but project lead "hosted" by a company.
Except that your comparison is completely and entirely wrong. Sonatype
is not trying to monetize Maven. We don't even remotely have the same
business model. All the work we do on Maven is a community service.
Sure we want recognition but we're not selling an enterprise version
of Maven, we don't have publicly available forked versions of Maven
that we promote and I can tell you our business model includes work on
Maven that yields no direct return except for good will. If the Maven
project has crappy technical underpinning it's not very useful for
people. Yes, Sonatype's business is predicated on the widespread use
of Maven-based technologies. Our investment is to increase the number
of Maven users by increasing the quality of Maven itself and have it
be used more. But that does not just directly benefit us. So how we
make money is first making sure the ecosystem is healthy because if it
isn't and people think we're doing devious things to then our entire
model crumbles. Without a healthy Maven community we have no business.
We invest in Maven without the expectation of a direct return.
We've invested in remaking Archetype, a couple full-time employees
working on the 2.x codebase to make sure releases continue, work on
evolving the artifact system, the transport system, Brian spends a ton
of time setting up things like Nexus (and yes it's our product but yes
it is useful to Maven users nonetheless), the Maven book, m2eclipse +
book, Nexus + book so I think we're doing a lot for the community. We
definitely hope people recognize this and see because of this we
understand the ecosystem of tools very well and puts us in a position
to make great products that fit well in the ecosystem. I think
Sonatype has done a pretty good job balancing our community and
commercial interests.
As Daniel said, I really like Maven, I really like the maven 3
roadmap you
described (the post was also a way to link to the video). I also
don't like
the current dev process : "release early, release often" - it tooks
6 month
between two minor maven 2.0 release, we hardly got a maven 2.1 build.
So what are you doing about it? Aside from complaining? Seriously? You
don't even ask for a summary of what you want, you just post a
diatribe which doesn't do the community any good.
I
don't say people here are not activelly contributing : the dev
community is
working hard and I myslef hardly find time to contribute
significantly. I
just thing we miss a good roadmap plan. Maven 2.x just have one from
few
time, maven 3 is still a "will be great, bu when" project.
Please post any comment you feel usefull for users to understand
your idea
of maven future.
Thanks all
Cheers,
Nicolas
2009/4/24 Jason van Zyl <jvan...@sonatype.com>
On 23-Apr-09, at 11:19 PM, Daniel Le Berre wrote:
Jason,
The summary is perfectly correct.
I would add that the author mentions too that your are friends,
and the
way the text is written is not offensive.
Good thing you translated. From the title and the Google translated
text I
read it as offensive. We are not friends so I would guess an
attempt at
sarcasm.
(The author clearly does not agree with current maven development
process,
he would like it be more community driven,
but it looks like Maven still has some values on his eyes).
Daniel
Le 24 avr. 09 à 01:52, Jason van Zyl a écrit :
Thanks if that seems like a reasonable translation I will respond.
On 23-Apr-09, at 4:00 PM, Christian Edward Gruber wrote:
My french isn't perfect, but the article basically...
<summary>
...argues against you (Jason) personally having the habit of
imposing
dramatic changes by presenting them as a fait-acomplis.
There's a bit of a bill of rights: We have the right to choose
archiva
or nexus (which he labels as Jason & Friends' personal project),
the right
to replace plexus with XBR?, the right not to have wagon
replaced by the
jetty team without discussion (or something like that), and
something about
you "offering" to integrate this person's GWT plugin and have it
hosted at
sonatype (with a sarcastic "what an honour" at the end).
Essentially it's an argument that you and your buddies have
created a
"putch" and taken over what should be an egalitarian, apache-
itarian
project. But it's now your little pet project (you and your
friends).
There's a bit about Eugene's being excluded because he doesn't
have the
same high-profile as the rest of the team, etc.
He believes in the potential, even if M3 looks like far-off
promise,
but he's got a problem with the attitude of the core group. He
thinks
Maven's going the way of JBoss and Spring and becoming a
"closed" opensource
project. The whole thing's nearly entirely under the control of
the
Sonatype people... how long until a "Maven Pro" comes out?
If things continue this way, he's going to have to revisit Ant
and Ivy.
</summary>
Fun fun fun. My own 2c... I don't care if Sonatype, codehaus,
or an
anarchic comune develops it, as long as they're responsive to
bright ideas
from the community and keep it open source. As far as I can
tell, Jason,
Brett, John, Emmanuel, and a host of others have done awesome
things. I
don't see Nexus as nefariously excluding Archiva, nor any other
maven-launched projects like Continuum, etc. I just see this
all as churn
in the community as different ideas are tried. As long as
we're not
locked in, I have no problems with that. I know no one asked my
opinion,
but there it is.
cheers
Christian.
Could someone who speaks French please translate this for me
before I
respond:
http://blog.loof.fr/
I'm not a native French speaker so I won't speculate, but if
someone
would translate I would like to respond.
Thanks,
Jason
----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
----------------------------------------------------------
What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good
people
can fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.
-- Paul Graham
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Christian Edward Gruber
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----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
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A man enjoys his work when he understands the whole and when he
is responsible for the quality of the whole
-- Christopher Alexander, A Pattern Language
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----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
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In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Jason van Zyl
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http://twitter.com/SonatypeM2E
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the course of true love never did run smooth ...
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