I've been using Netbeans for over 20 years now. Participated in multiple NetCat programs and Netbeans has always been my only IDE when doing things.
I see that in the recent years our market share shrank significantly. I always run the IDE on the latest LTS version and IMO we should concentrate more on adding new features and attracting more users. If JDK 1.8 support effort drags us from moving forward to that goal, we need to let it go. In general we need to concentrate more on modernizing our beloved IDE. Just my 2 cents. Kind regards, Vano Beridze On Sat, Apr 8, 2023, 4:19 PM Jaroslav Tulach <jaroslav.tul...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dne středa 5. dubna 2023 22:32:18 CEST, John Kostaras napsal(a): > > -1 > > > > Java 8 is also LTS and many out there are still stuck to it. I support > > Jarda, too. > > Thank you John. There is a reason why JDK8 is LTS, right? When I was > working > with your organization I could see how important backward compatibility > is. I > could see the environment you were working in and also the previous (not > based > on NetBeans Platform) solution - I could see that it was maintained for > way > more years than a "normal developer" can imagine. > > I was proud to see your group selecting the NetBeans Platform and I got > even > more motivated to keep the promise of backward compatibility because of > that! > Dropping ability of the NetBeans Platform to run on JDK8 needlessly (yes, > I am > absolutely convinced it is needless; as we can find a way to "Run on JDK8, > use > JDK11 APIs!" - http://wiki.apidesign.org/wiki/AlternativeImplementation - > without dropping JDK8 support fully) is against everything I have always > been > promoting as an API designer. > > -jt > > PS: I am sorry to see you changed your vote. However I can understand that > - > there is a lot of pressure (public as well as private) and one almost > feels > like an enemy being on the side of backward compatibility. > > > > > On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 6:25 PM toni.ep...@eppleton.de < > > > > toni.ep...@eppleton.de> wrote: > > > -1 > > > > > > I agree with Jarda. Having the portability for platforms like Android > is > > > important, and I support the proposed alternative. > > > > > > > > > > > > Von: Jaroslav Tulach <jaroslav.tul...@gmail.com> > > > Datum: Mittwoch, 5. April 2023 um 17:13 > > > An: dev <dev@netbeans.apache.org> > > > Betreff: Re: [Lazy Consensus] Minimum JDK build and run policy > (dropping > > > JDK 8) > > > -1 > > > > > > Background: http://wiki.apidesign.org/wiki/Portability > > > > > > > > > Alternative: > > > > > > - I will maintain what ever needs to be maintained to keep JDK 8 CI > tests > > > running > > > > > > - From Apache NetBeans 19, the minimum JDK required to build and run > > > the IDE will be JDK 11. > > > > > > - The minimum JDK to run and test the NetBeans Platform and modules up > to > > > VSCode & Jackpot remains JDK 8. > > > > > > - Usage of JDK11, JDK17, etc. API is possible in dedicated modules via > > > http:// > > > wiki.apidesign.org/wiki/AlternativeImplementation > > > > > > > > > Justification: > > > > > > Writing in Java (a language designed to write once and run everywhere) > > > greatly > > > increases portability. However there is another axis hurting > portability - > > > the > > > supported JDK version. Of course, should a library be widely used, it > has > > > to > > > support as oldest JDK as possible. These days it is JDK8 - the primary > > > reason > > > being that Android supports JDK8 - as such, should a library aspire to > be > > > used > > > on Android (as well as regular Java), it needs to stick to version > eight. > > > > > > There's transitivity of non-portability - the portability of the final > > > application cannot be bigger than portability of the least portable > > > library > > > used. This applies also to 3rd party dependencies a framework or > library > > > has: > > > again their non-portability may negatively affect portability of such > > > framework > > > or library. > > > > > > Of course, writing portable libraries is harder. It requires more work > > > from > > > the API author, more self-control, more suffering. However such > suffering > > > is > > > justifiable. There is usually a single API writer, but there are many > > > users to > > > it. What matters is to simplify and improve experience of those API > users > > > - > > > own author suffering doesn't matter that much. > > > > > > > # Proposed policy > > > > > > > > * Apache NetBeans 18 will be the last release to support running the > > > > platform on JDK 8. > > > > > > > > * From Apache NetBeans 19, the minimum JDK required to build and run > > > > the IDE or platform will be JDK 11. > > > > > > > > * Future releases will take an "LTS-1" strategy for building and > > > > running (and CI testing) of the IDE and platform. Three JDKs will be > > > > supported at any one time - the current JDK, plus the previous two > LTS > > > > releases. eg. NetBeans 20 and 21 (Nov 2023 / Feb 2024) will support > > > > JDK 11, 17 and 21. NetBeans 22 (May 2024) will support JDK 17, 21 and > > > > 22. > > > > > > > > ## Background > > > > > > > > The Apache NetBeans IDE has officially required JDK 11 to build and > > > > run since NetBeans 13 in March 2022. The platform (and unofficially > > > > the IDE) have continued to support running on JDK 8 - all modules > > > > requiring a higher JDK must currently be optional. Various tests have > > > > continued on JDK 8. > > > > > > > > This situation is causing issues as workarounds must be found for > > > > currently non-optional features that have dependencies or other > > > > requirements for running on a higher JDK (eg. Maven indexing / Lucene > > > > [1]). It's causing delays, complications and missed testing time in > > > > integration of new features (eg. problems merging support for EE 10 > > > > [2]). Supporting an increasing range of JDKs is causing increasing > > > > workload, both for people and CI. Meeting the challenges of > deprecated > > > > (for removal) features in the JDK is also complicated by the > > > > additional JDK requirements. > > > > > > > > ## Notes > > > > > > > > * Apache NetBeans users will continue to be recommended to use the > > > > current or latest LTS JDK to run the IDE. The IDE will continue to > > > > support users developing projects for/with JDK 8, for as long as > > > > nb-javac and other dependencies allow. > > > > > > > > * This proposal specifically doesn't address when the default > bytecode > > > > level across the codebase is increased. This can happen when > required, > > > > but non-optional modules would be free to adopt the minimum JDK as > > > > they need to. > > > > > > > > * Optional modules may continue to require a runtime JDK higher than > > > > the minimum. Should it become necessary, build time optional modules > > > > might be considered - eg. a build on the minimum JDK may exclude > > > > modules that will not run on that JDK at runtime. > > > > > > > > * Some modules that are of independent use (eg. lookup, utilities, > > > > etc.) might be nominated and advertised to continue JDK 8 support for > > > > the time being. This is not expected to cover the runtime container > as > > > > a whole - > > > > > > https://netbeans.apache.org/tutorials/nbm-runtime-container.html > > > > > > > * Once NetBeans 19 is released, the NetBeans 18 release branch could > > > > be used to backport and release JDK 8 supporting fixes, subject to > any > > > > PMC members wanting to manage those releases. > > > > > > > > * The term "platform" is used in reference to the whole framework of > > > > modules that we release (eg. via Maven), not just the platform > > > > cluster. > > > > > > > > [1] https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/4999 > > > > [2] https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/4692 > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@netbeans.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@netbeans.apache.org > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit: > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists > > > >
