Hi
First, please understand I hold you in incredibly high regard, and
apologize for causing any frustration... You and Andy have created an
amazing software tool that I'm basing my business on, and you've given
it away. I love that! As you can see, your efforts are now multiplying
in to a system that has a life of its own, which will eventually change
the face of many businesses throughout the world.
During this process, you've needed to exercise great control in choosing
what to allow into the project, and what to reject. Since I often update
my production system to the svn head, I'm very glad someone is there
watching, and if you think about it, it makes sense that access has been
very limited to just the professionals that have devoted themselves to
the project.
However, as it grows, there are more and more newbies that want to help
in their little way. Many *non-committers* who have wanted to give back
to the project have been stifled and frustrated, often because their
contributions were not appropriate, but sometimes simply because the
committers are too busy to review/test/correct their contributions. In
other cases, the resultant solutions are too specific to just their
business, or as a employee, the business although willing to donate the
code back, was not willing to devote the time needed to make the
consumable by the project at large.
So, what can we do to create a space where non-committers can share
their bits with the community? Please understand, we are agreed that
neither of us would want their contributions running on a system.
- The source forge sandbox isn't really a good fit, because, as Chris
has researched, the legal ramifications of donating it back to the
project outweigh the benefits begotten from the group effort.
- Forcing developers to work alone isn't working very well.
- A sandbox with lots of committers isn't going to work. Thanks for
explaining that in your e-mail, I didn't realize this wasn't workable
till now.
- Jira isn't working.
- The wiki could possibly work, but it doesn't go through the legal
process with each submission, and I cringe even thinking of trying to
work with code in wiki. Eek.
- Even using the wiki, to catalog which jira issues are "in play" is
unwieldy. Patch nightmare actually.
David, can you think of way to make a space in this community where the
new/non-polished committers can easily share and play together with
their ideas where they won't hurt the bigger project until the
components are well proven?
Would it work to have a sandbox that is managed by the existing
committers, or perhaps a few new committers? As a committer, you
wouldn't need to give nearly the same amount of time and attention to
trying to make sure the commitment met best practices, free of bugs,
etc. Any developer could share their stuff that they've implemented for
their business, or other neat components. And, since the commitments
would be in svn on the other side of the "Donate to the Apache
Foundation legal radio button, it'd be easy for these developers to
collaborate and slowly bring unworkable buggy messes into gold. Finally,
users could easily find and try the components without mucking with
patch files, etc.
Thanks
Daniel
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 00:45 -0700, David E. Jones wrote:
Okay, I just wrote a huge thing and deleted it. There might have been
good stuff in there, but I am really frustrated because I've said it
all before and based on the comments from Chris it doesn't seem like
anything it making it out there.
If you're not a lawyer, then reference documents and processes
already established.
I'm not even going to bother going into detail unless people are
willing to:
1. describe their understanding of how what they want to do would be
done under current policy
2. describe why that doesn't work for what you want to do
3. describe how the existing processes need to changed in order to
accommodate it
A sandbox is a BAD BAD BAD BAD IDEA. Like you mentioned Daniel it
would create a huge mess. I'm afraid one of two things would happen:
1. nothing
2. a lot
In the case of number 1 it's not worth the effort to set it up. In
the case of #2 it would required more effort to administer and
monitor than we have resources for in OFBiz. There is no way I'd even
think about doing this under the ASF umbrella because I am not
willing to take on the responsibility of vetting a large number of
committers and recommending them as committers in the ASF, which is
BIG DEAL, and a responsibility and some people seem to be forgetting
that.
If you want to be a committer you have to help with the project. You
have to take ownership of it, defend it, be committed to it, and so
on. Okay, now I'm doing what I was in the 2 page email I just deleted
and I'm stopping.
If you want to know more about becoming and being a committer and
about contributing to OFBiz, READ THE DARN DOCUMENTS!
I don't know WHY these questions are coming up here. Stop asking
them. Read the documents. I won't be baited into this any more. It's
a waste of time, and all based on supposition and not any real
problems or issues as far as I can see.
If you develop something outside of OFBiz and want to contribute it,
here is the page describing how it works:
http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
This is basically a streamlined incubation process for code going
into existing projects.
If you really want to help and be involved in the project it means
working on OTHER PEOPLE'S STUFF, NOT YOUR OWN! Yes, it makes it
easier to get your own stuff in but if that is all you're about
related to the project, then being a committer isn't for you.
If you want to know more about contributing and being a committer,
read the docs:
http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/mQ
http://docs.ofbiz.org/x/r
If you want to know more about licensing and legal issues, read the
docs:
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html
http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
http://www.apache.org/foundation/licence-FAQ.html
http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html
For a lot of good information, broaden the scope and study under:
http://www.apache.org/dev/
These were not written because someone was looking for some
entertainment. They were written so things wouldn't have to be
explained over and over.
I'm calling it a day now, as soon as I take care of some real issues,
and as long as my son with the flu doesn't throw up again. Sorry,
this is really frustrating, and really silly. Reality sucks, but we
all have to live with it.
If people want to help, then help. Don't just ask for help. Start by
being a giver, not a taker.
If this sounds a bit harsh, great! Go for a walk and think about how
things work in real life, then read it again. If you're still upset,
read it again. Then go read all of the documents referenced. Then if
you still have a question, send it on in, but PLEASE try to look at
it from the point of a MEMBER of the OFBiz community, and not a user
of OFBiz who really doesn't want to get involved.
If you're asking "how are you going to solve this problem" then
you're asking the wrong question. If you want to participate as "how
can I solve this problem", if "I" can't, then do with "how can we
solve this problem". I don't mean that is what should be in your
email, I mean that is what should be in your head. If you can't find
an answer yourself that is 100% okay, just start a discussion and
accept what you asked for.
If you don't like the answer explain why it doesn't work for you,
which brings us back to the beginning of this email...
-David
On Jan 25, 2007, at 6:10 PM, Daniel Kunkel wrote:
David
Can you explain your reticence to adding an Apache OFBiz sandbox where
more members of the community could share their work?
I can see this section possibly getting a disorganized over time with
*junk*... but it can be deleted easily enough. As a top level project
would it possible and better to organize a sub project for this?
Thanks
Daniel
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 12:41 -0800, Chris Howe wrote:
I think we're talking about two different things. You're talking
about
developing and I'm talking about legal issues. The manner of
developing was already discussed in OFBIZ-499. The only legal way to
use JIRA to collaborate this type of thing is to keep sending updated
patches to JIRA or to have a committer review and add it to a
specialized application. Neither one of these is speed of
development
friendly.
Legal concerns wouldn't have been one of the primary driving
forces of
moving to the ASF if it were true that "we've done fine for years".
The project still has technical exposure to a C & D order as the CLA
only covered works the copyright holder gave directly to the ASF not
the works the copyright holder gave to the OFBIZ project prior to
incubation. IANAL, and I don't think there is significant exposure,
but it is still there. That opinion isn't based on the vehicle
used to
create Apache OFBiz, but on the impression of kindheartedness from
the
members of the community prior to incubation.
I don't want to speculate on the legal relationship the group that
worked on the anon checkout had, but I would suspect that it
generated
some negative legal exposure as well and that the proposed setup of
Developers Conference will add to that.
The only feedback that I've received from the general incubator list
are speculations, all with the caveat that the poster is not a lawyer
either and no one has been willing to post it to the legal-discuss
list.
This issue is one of the MAJOR reasons for the existence of non-
profit
entities like the ASF, FSF, and SPI. So again, I ask you to
reconsider
the need of a more public sandbox where this kind of community
collaboration can be done without the complications of copyright
infringement, or at the very least pose the question to legal-discuss
for a formal opinion from those representing the ASF's interests. It
is my understanding that when it's added to Apache owned SVN, ASF is
the copyright holder of the collective work instead of an impromptu
partnership where the individuals have no legal authority to offer a
collective work.
Regards,
Chris
--- "David E. Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
I REALLY don't think you need a sandbox for this. We've done fine
for
years without one, even with the recently re-done ecommerce
anonymous
checkout process and alternative checkout processes which were
developed entirely outside of OFBiz.
Getting this stuff done is mostly a matter of knowing what you're
doing and having a clear goal to work towards, a design of sorts if
you will. A sandbox won't help that.
Once you have a design you can start building it without touching
the
current stuff, just make it an alternate path and don't break
anything existing along the way. Once it is complete, then another
patch can go in to remove the old code.
It's that simple. That process has been followed well over a hundred
times over the life of OFBiz and even for those with commit access
it's the only way to go. If you don't have commit access, it's even
better because you can develop until you're stuck or out of time,
then throw in a patch and have it committed without breaking
anything
else, even if the new thing isn't working 100%.
-David
On Jan 25, 2007, at 12:05 PM, Chris Howe wrote:
Hey Anil,
I've begun some of this already. I'm taking the approach of
passing
the cart to a simple method that first checks the order type and
then
calls a method or service that is focused on that order type. Each
order type service will call a multitude of methods/services that
prepare the cart data to be entered into the datasource.
I would love to collaborate on this, but because of the size, it's
rather difficult to do by passing patches back and forth through
JIRA
without having a reference point that SVN provides. This is one of
those things that the ofbiz-sandbox project would be good for, but
it
still has a legal issue that will prevent it from being entered
back
into the project. I can as an individual grant Apache the license
it
needs for the work I do, you as an individual can grant Apache the
license it needs for the work you do, but without each of us
assuming
the liability of a partnership we cannot grant a license for the
work
as a whole. The only way around this is to use ofbiz-sandbox SVN
and
make patches for each commit and each of us resubmit our own patch
to
OFBiz JIRA with the order they need to be applied in.
This would be sooooo much easier if the members of OFBiz PMC would
respond on including a public sandbox in Apache OFBiz as each SVN
commit will be licensed to Apache, and Apache will be the owner of
the
work as a whole instead of an impromptu partnership being the
owner.
--- Anil Patel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
I planning to participate in this developer conference. I am
interested in
contributing towards making Order Entry process more flexible. If
there are
Others who will be interested we can start some ground work. I
request one
of the commiters who has interest in this to Please lead this
effort.
The anonymous checkout process in Ecommerce component provides
some
high
level guiding principals. Few things that I can think of are
1) moving some code that's embedded in Java classes into small
simple
methods.
2) Moving process control logic from event handlers to Controller
file.
Any Ideas
Regards
Anil Patel
On 1/16/07, David E. Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
NOTE: I'm just sending this to the dev list as this event is
meant
mainly for those who want to be involved with development of
OFBiz
itself. There will be a variety of projects going on and we hope
everyone will be able to work on both paid and fun stuff, but the
results will all be going right back into OFBiz. Still, everyone
is
welcome to attend and join the "party" so if you know of someone
who
might be interested but isn't subscribed to the dev mailing list,
please forward it on to them.
NOTE2: While most of this conference will be centered around
development, if you aren't a developer it doesn't mean you can't
come. It would be great to have, for example, people like
business
analysts and technical writers to help with requirements, design,
and
documentation and such would be great!
Included below is the original email about this, and most of the
information there is still applicable. Here are a few decisions,
based on feedback:
1. the conference dates will be 5-9 March 2007 (Monday - Friday),
and
may spill over into Sat the 10th
2. you don't have to come for the entire conference, but we
recommend
coming for at least Mon-Wed or Wed-Fri as we'll schedule
big-group
meetings and any presentations for Wednesday; if you can come for
the
whole week, please do, it'll be great!
3. people are welcome to come and enjoy local attractions for the
weekend before and/or after (it will still be cool in the area
here,
snowy in the mountains for skiing/boarding/snowmobiling, and
depending on weather it can be a great time for visiting the
deserts
and canyons south of here)
4. the cost to cover the meeting rooms, snacks, infra stuff, etc
will
be $175 for the week (or $35/day) per person; we will have
wireless
internet access, and I have a bridge if anyone needs wired
access;
we
will have at least 2 projectors and perhaps other large monitors
to
facilitate group development and discussion
5. meals, lodging, etc are not included in the main price, but
we'll
have 5-9 rooms available in the building (for $20-30 per night,
first
come first serve); there is a decent hotel in town as well for
around
$80 per night (contact me for details); for meals there are
various
restaurants within walking distance
6. the attendance cap is initially 20 people; there seems to be a
lot
of interest in this, so if we go over that we'll raise it by
perhaps
5-10 more people and convert some other adjacent rooms in the
building to be for group meeting use as well (we're planning on 2
big
rooms, plus a fairly big room with a small kitchen in it)
7. the actual development goals are not finalized, but there is
quite
a bit of interest in various things on the original list I
included
(below), the big things seem to be testing infrastructure and
project
management functionality
To register (ASAP please, to make my job of planning easier!),
please
contact me by email ([EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) with the following
information:
1. your name, company name, contact info (phone, email if
different
than from address)
2. how many in your group (if more than one, their names too)
3. plans (as much as known) for how many days and which days
4. lodging preference - in the building (private rooms, shared
toilets/showers) how many rooms, or nearby hotel (I'll respond
with
contact info for the nice place close by, or there is a "fleabag"
motel place too though not sure if I'd recommend it)
5. snack/diet preferences
6. local travel plans: do you need a ride, or do you plan to
rent/
=== message truncated ===
--
Daniel
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Have a GREAT Day!
Daniel Kunkel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
BioWaves, LLC http://www.BioWaves.com
14150 NE 20th St. Suite F1
Bellevue, WA 98007
800-734-3588 425-895-0050
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http://www.Card-Offer.com http://www.RackWine.com
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