David E Jones wrote: > Go on all you like. The simple point is that you need to tone it > down if you want others to be willing to contribute. This is a > community-driven project, and you are not the boss. If you want > code to be a certain way, then by all means step up and make it > that way. Why do you expect others to do thing the way you think > they should be done?
Bother. So, when someone repeatedly makes the same mistakes, even after being told multiple times over and over to be better, even after trying to be polite over and over and over again, we must still be soft in our language? At some point, a tree just becomes a tree, and calling it a branch is no longer the way to go. I *have* shown how it is possible to do what I have been talking about. Countless times. There are tools to help us; several different kinds. But people don't seem to use them. Then, people get defensive when I comment on the issues that they cause for others. A community project this is; that means that those participating should be aware of the what others are doing, and be courteous of not breaking what others might be working on. It's not just about being soft spoken, it's about the code first and foremost. Repeatedly, I have commented on things, given examples of what to do. Others on this list have agreed with me, while others have taken what I have said and pasted it into various developer docs. This particular incident was me repeating what I have already said in the past, and what others have agreed with me on. Are you saying we are all wrong, and that you are right? > Heck, I'm even gun-shy these days and I'm really not interested in > developing and contributing much because of the total lack of > constructive review and feedback, with this sort of vitriol and > nonsense in its place. I even have a couple of offers to do things > in the framework, but I've recommended to the client that they take > a different course because "doing it right" would involve way too > much community push back, and I'm just not that into it. I really > don't want to write code according to the rules of Adam Heath or > anyone else, especially since there is so much poorly designed and > organized stuff constantly going into OFBiz that these "rules" seem > to universally miss the point and just throw effort where it won't > do ANY good. But don't worry Adam, you're far from the only one and > I don't want to miscommunicate here and state or imply that it is > you fault, it is most certainly not. To be fair, it only got so heated after you spoke up. Do not place the blame solely on me. I've seen the case countless times over the years, in tons of different projects, to only comment on the end of a situation. But that is useless. You must deal with the root of the problem. You don't want to write code to my standards, or someone else's standards? That means you want to write them to your own standards. I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Your standards are not what ofbiz is(I'm sorry, it may have been that way in the past, but not anymore). The standards for ofbiz are what we *all* agree to(what that actually *is* varies over time of course). To say you won't follow what anyone else says, and will do things your own way, is the absolute worse thing to do. If the community pushes back on something, maybe it's for a reason. Just because some individual things they are doing things correct, if the rest of us disagree, that doesn't mean that the rest of us are wrong, and you are correct. This project is no longer solely yours. If you see things being done that you don't agree with, that's cool. Say so, at the time. Keeping silent on them will *not* get them fixed. If there is an issue, speak up! If you mention an issue, and others here agree, then a consensus can be reached. But just giving up will *not* produce better work. People who give up are lazy, imho. This is why I very seldom give up. Even when I say I am going to ignore someone, and either say I will block the email, block the IM, block the irc, I really don't; I just use that as a wake-up call to whoever I am interacting with. > A few days ago I let the PMC know that I'm stepping down as the > chair and intend to no longer be as active in the project. There are > many reasons for that, but I won't say that this sort of stuff isn't > one of them. This kind of stuff just isn't worth it to me personally. That's said that you are stepping down. But this still seems to me that you are pouting, and taking your ball home. A leader has to take the good with the bad. If this really is 'the bad', and others could tell me if it is(I already know how you feel about this), then fine. But, I'm thinking that this won't be the case. If this turns out not to be 'the bad', then you are just making a mountain out of a molehill, and you've lost touch with everyone else. > I don't know how to solve these problems with community interactions, > or by another way of looking at it I don't know what we can do to > work together better. I've tried a few times to defend people being > attacked, or try to point out hopefully more effective ways of doing > things. Every time I just get personally attacked in response. I > know that doing this is not the role of the PMC Chair, but I've been > trying anyway and obviously completely failing and my efforts seem > to be doing more harm than good, or that is the feedback I've been > seeing. It's great that OFBiz has become what it has in spite of my > inability to foster growth and collaboration in the community, and I > hope that it will continue to grow and do so because of the nature > of the project and community. I really have hope that it will, in > spite of what I'm about to write... I'll say it again, as I've said previously in this email, and others. I've been working with everyone here for quite a while, and others here agree with me. Others here may not have enough experience dealing with community projects, so may not be able to express themselves in ways others can understand. My extensive experience has allowed me to hone this skill, so I say what is on my mind. Others can then read it easily, and most often actually agree with what I say. Then, with such agreement, I tend to continue on the same set of issues that have been confirmed. Suddenly, out of the blue, people start saying I shouldn't be doing such commentary. Hogwash. We've agreed, and I'm good at discovering these issues, and communicating the problem(s) to each person in general, without hardly ever coming off as an attack. It's only the repeat offenders that I am more forceful with. The reason Hans does get more eyes looking at his work, is the *fact* that he does so much of it. > For years I've been talking up this approach of doing things in a > community-driven way and the great things that can happen, and have > happened with OFBiz, because of the approach. Over the last few > months I guess I've lost my faith in it. It's interesting that OFBiz > was born in one recession, but the project doesn't seem to be > weathering this one very well. I hope things improve and that the > community will strengthen again, because it's the ONLY that the > project will progress in any good way. I imagine most of us are > under considerably more stress than has been the case in recent > years, and it's a shame to see things going this way. Still, my > income is almost entirely based on OFBiz and I'm glad of that... it's > still a better place to be and better software to be working with > than anything else I'm aware of. Huh? You think it isn't weathering this one well? What are you smoking? Ofbiz has gotten *bigger* in the last 1.5 years; more work is going into it. I see this community as perfectly strong. This particular thread/incident is nothing, in the grand scheme of flamewars that I have been involved with. This issue is kindergarten in severity. It's just some others seem to have quite thin skin. > > -David > > P.S. I apologize for my tone in my previous response, I should not > have sunk so low. I won't do so in the future. Yet after you did so, and I responded in kind, you then come after me as the one who started it. Wonderful. ps: I'm sorry if this email seems a little personal. There were so many inconsistent view points, that I couldn't let the email go without a response. pps: There are several parts to this email that are not directed at all to any one particular person. They can be applied to anyone, if you step back a bit and look at the big picture.
