Adam, please do not introduce the Debian fights where you seem to be so proud of, in this mailing list.
I appreciate your technical involvement but your mailinglist behavior is not acceptable. You are scaring away any new contributions from new people. Regards, Hans On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 22:38 -0600, Adam Heath wrote: > David E Jones wrote: > > Go on all you like. The simple point is that you need to tone it > > down if you want others to be willing to contribute. This is a > > community-driven project, and you are not the boss. If you want > > code to be a certain way, then by all means step up and make it > > that way. Why do you expect others to do thing the way you think > > they should be done? > > Bother. So, when someone repeatedly makes the same mistakes, even > after being told multiple times over and over to be better, even after > trying to be polite over and over and over again, we must still be > soft in our language? > > At some point, a tree just becomes a tree, and calling it a branch is > no longer the way to go. > > I *have* shown how it is possible to do what I have been talking > about. Countless times. There are tools to help us; several > different kinds. But people don't seem to use them. Then, people get > defensive when I comment on the issues that they cause for others. > > A community project this is; that means that those participating > should be aware of the what others are doing, and be courteous of not > breaking what others might be working on. It's not just about being > soft spoken, it's about the code first and foremost. > > Repeatedly, I have commented on things, given examples of what to do. > Others on this list have agreed with me, while others have taken what > I have said and pasted it into various developer docs. This > particular incident was me repeating what I have already said in the > past, and what others have agreed with me on. Are you saying we are > all wrong, and that you are right? > > > Heck, I'm even gun-shy these days and I'm really not interested in > > developing and contributing much because of the total lack of > > constructive review and feedback, with this sort of vitriol and > > nonsense in its place. I even have a couple of offers to do things > > in the framework, but I've recommended to the client that they take > > a different course because "doing it right" would involve way too > > much community push back, and I'm just not that into it. I really > > don't want to write code according to the rules of Adam Heath or > > anyone else, especially since there is so much poorly designed and > > organized stuff constantly going into OFBiz that these "rules" seem > > to universally miss the point and just throw effort where it won't > > do ANY good. But don't worry Adam, you're far from the only one and > > I don't want to miscommunicate here and state or imply that it is > > you fault, it is most certainly not. > > To be fair, it only got so heated after you spoke up. Do not place > the blame solely on me. > > I've seen the case countless times over the years, in tons of > different projects, to only comment on the end of a situation. But > that is useless. You must deal with the root of the problem. > > You don't want to write code to my standards, or someone else's > standards? That means you want to write them to your own standards. > I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Your standards are not what ofbiz > is(I'm sorry, it may have been that way in the past, but not anymore). > The standards for ofbiz are what we *all* agree to(what that actually > *is* varies over time of course). To say you won't follow what anyone > else says, and will do things your own way, is the absolute worse > thing to do. > > If the community pushes back on something, maybe it's for a reason. > Just because some individual things they are doing things correct, if > the rest of us disagree, that doesn't mean that the rest of us are > wrong, and you are correct. This project is no longer solely yours. > > If you see things being done that you don't agree with, that's cool. > Say so, at the time. Keeping silent on them will *not* get them > fixed. If there is an issue, speak up! If you mention an issue, and > others here agree, then a consensus can be reached. But just giving > up will *not* produce better work. People who give up are lazy, imho. > This is why I very seldom give up. Even when I say I am going to > ignore someone, and either say I will block the email, block the IM, > block the irc, I really don't; I just use that as a wake-up call to > whoever I am interacting with. > > > A few days ago I let the PMC know that I'm stepping down as the > > chair and intend to no longer be as active in the project. There are > > many reasons for that, but I won't say that this sort of stuff isn't > > one of them. This kind of stuff just isn't worth it to me personally. > > That's said that you are stepping down. But this still seems to me > that you are pouting, and taking your ball home. > > A leader has to take the good with the bad. If this really is 'the > bad', and others could tell me if it is(I already know how you feel > about this), then fine. But, I'm thinking that this won't be the > case. If this turns out not to be 'the bad', then you are just making > a mountain out of a molehill, and you've lost touch with everyone else. > > > I don't know how to solve these problems with community interactions, > > or by another way of looking at it I don't know what we can do to > > work together better. I've tried a few times to defend people being > > attacked, or try to point out hopefully more effective ways of doing > > things. Every time I just get personally attacked in response. I > > know that doing this is not the role of the PMC Chair, but I've been > > trying anyway and obviously completely failing and my efforts seem > > to be doing more harm than good, or that is the feedback I've been > > seeing. It's great that OFBiz has become what it has in spite of my > > inability to foster growth and collaboration in the community, and I > > hope that it will continue to grow and do so because of the nature > > of the project and community. I really have hope that it will, in > > spite of what I'm about to write... > > I'll say it again, as I've said previously in this email, and others. > I've been working with everyone here for quite a while, and others > here agree with me. Others here may not have enough experience > dealing with community projects, so may not be able to express > themselves in ways others can understand. My extensive experience has > allowed me to hone this skill, so I say what is on my mind. Others > can then read it easily, and most often actually agree with what I say. > > Then, with such agreement, I tend to continue on the same set of > issues that have been confirmed. Suddenly, out of the blue, people > start saying I shouldn't be doing such commentary. Hogwash. We've > agreed, and I'm good at discovering these issues, and communicating > the problem(s) to each person in general, without hardly ever coming > off as an attack. It's only the repeat offenders that I am more > forceful with. > > The reason Hans does get more eyes looking at his work, is the *fact* > that he does so much of it. > > > For years I've been talking up this approach of doing things in a > > community-driven way and the great things that can happen, and have > > happened with OFBiz, because of the approach. Over the last few > > months I guess I've lost my faith in it. It's interesting that OFBiz > > was born in one recession, but the project doesn't seem to be > > weathering this one very well. I hope things improve and that the > > community will strengthen again, because it's the ONLY that the > > project will progress in any good way. I imagine most of us are > > under considerably more stress than has been the case in recent > > years, and it's a shame to see things going this way. Still, my > > income is almost entirely based on OFBiz and I'm glad of that... it's > > still a better place to be and better software to be working with > > than anything else I'm aware of. > > Huh? You think it isn't weathering this one well? What are you > smoking? Ofbiz has gotten *bigger* in the last 1.5 years; more work > is going into it. > > I see this community as perfectly strong. > > This particular thread/incident is nothing, in the grand scheme of > flamewars that I have been involved with. This issue is kindergarten > in severity. It's just some others seem to have quite thin skin. > > > > > > -David > > > > P.S. I apologize for my tone in my previous response, I should not > > have sunk so low. I won't do so in the future. > > Yet after you did so, and I responded in kind, you then come after me > as the one who started it. Wonderful. > > ps: I'm sorry if this email seems a little personal. There were so > many inconsistent view points, that I couldn't let the email go > without a response. > > pps: There are several parts to this email that are not directed at > all to any one particular person. They can be applied to anyone, if > you step back a bit and look at the big picture. -- Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates
