You have substantially underestimated how opinionated people can be on mailing lists too :)
On Sunday, November 6, 2016, Maciej Szymkiewicz <mszymkiew...@gmail.com> wrote: > You have to remember that Stack Overflow crowd (like me) is highly > opinionated, so many questions, which could be just fine on the mailing > list, will be quickly downvoted and / or closed as off-topic. Just > saying... > > -- > Best, > Maciej > > > On 11/07/2016 04:03 AM, Reynold Xin wrote: > > OK I've checked on the ASF member list (which is private so there is no > public archive). > > It is not against any ASF rule to recommend StackOverflow as a place for > users to ask questions. I don't think we can or should delete the existing > user@spark list either, but we can certainly make SO more visible than it > is. > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Reynold Xin <r...@databricks.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','r...@databricks.com');>> wrote: > >> Actually after talking with more ASF members, I believe the only policy >> is that development decisions have to be made and announced on ASF >> properties (dev list or jira), but user questions don't have to. >> >> I'm going to double check this. If it is true, I would actually recommend >> us moving entirely over the Q&A part of the user list to stackoverflow, or >> at least make that the recommended way rather than the existing user list >> which is not very scalable. >> >> >> On Wednesday, November 2, 2016, Nicholas Chammas < >> nicholas.cham...@gmail.com >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nicholas.cham...@gmail.com');>> wrote: >> >>> We’ve discussed several times upgrading our communication tools, as far >>> back as 2014 and maybe even before that too. The bottom line is that we >>> can’t due to ASF rules requiring the use of ASF-managed mailing lists. >>> >>> For some history, see this discussion: >>> >>> - https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412. >>> mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oY5NO2dHWJ_kVEoP+Ng@ >>> mail.gmail.com%3E >>> >>> <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201412.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzfL2COdysV8r5hZN8f=NqXM=f=oy5no2dhwj_kveop...@mail.gmail.com%3E> >>> - https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501. >>> mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=TKTxY_sYw@ >>> mail.gmail.com%3E >>> >>> <https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-user/201501.mbox/%3CCAOhmDzec1JdsXQq3dDwAv7eLnzRidSkrsKKG0xKw=tktxy_...@mail.gmail.com%3E> >>> >>> (It’s ironic that it’s difficult to follow the past discussion on why we >>> can’t change our official communication tools due to those very tools…) >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:24 PM Ricardo Almeida < >>> ricardo.alme...@actnowib.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I fell Assaf point is quite relevant if we want to move this project >>>> forward from the Spark user perspective (as I do). In fact, we're >>>> still using 20th century tools (mailing lists) with some add-ons (like >>>> Stack Overflow). >>>> >>>> As usually, Sean and Cody's contributions are very to the point. >>>> I fell it is indeed a matter of of culture (hard to enforce) and tools >>>> (much easier). Isn't it? >>>> >>>> On 2 November 2016 at 16:36, Cody Koeninger <c...@koeninger.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> So concrete things people could do >>>>> >>>>> - users could tag subject lines appropriately to the component they're >>>>> asking about >>>>> >>>>> - contributors could monitor user@ for tags relating to components >>>>> they've worked on. >>>>> I'd be surprised if my miss rate for any mailing list questions >>>>> well-labeled as Kafka was higher than 5% >>>>> >>>>> - committers could be more aggressive about soliciting and merging PRs >>>>> to improve documentation. >>>>> It's a lot easier to answer even poorly-asked questions with a link to >>>>> relevant docs. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 7:39 AM, Sean Owen <so...@cloudera.com> wrote: >>>>> > There's already reviews@ and issues@. dev@ is for project >>>>> development itself >>>>> > and I think is OK. You're suggesting splitting up user@ and I >>>>> sympathize >>>>> > with the motivation. Experience tells me that we'll have a beginner@ >>>>> that's >>>>> > then totally ignored, and people will quickly learn to post to >>>>> advanced@ to >>>>> > get attention, and we'll be back where we started. Putting it in JIRA >>>>> > doesn't help. I don't think this a problem that is merely down to >>>>> lack of >>>>> > process. It actually requires cultivating a culture change on the >>>>> community >>>>> > list. >>>>> > >>>>> > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:11 PM Mendelson, Assaf < >>>>> assaf.mendel...@rsa.com> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> What I am suggesting is basically to fix that. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> For example, we might say that mailing list A is only for voting, >>>>> mailing >>>>> >> list B is only for PR and have something like stack overflow for >>>>> developer >>>>> >> questions (I would even go as far as to have beginner, intermediate >>>>> and >>>>> >> advanced mailing list for users and beginner/advanced for dev). >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> This can easily be done using stack overflow tags, however, that >>>>> would >>>>> >> probably be harder to manage. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Maybe using special jira tags and manage it in jira? >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Anyway as I said, the main issue is not user questions (except maybe >>>>> >> advanced ones) but more for dev questions. It is so easy to get >>>>> lost in the >>>>> >> chatter that it makes it very hard for people to learn spark >>>>> internals… >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Assaf. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> From: Sean Owen [mailto:so...@cloudera.com] >>>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 2:07 PM >>>>> >> To: Mendelson, Assaf; dev@spark.apache.org >>>>> >> Subject: Re: Handling questions in the mailing lists >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I think that unfortunately mailing lists don't scale well. This one >>>>> has >>>>> >> thousands of subscribers with different interests and levels of >>>>> experience. >>>>> >> For any given person, most messages will be irrelevant. I also find >>>>> that a >>>>> >> lot of questions on user@ are not well-asked, aren't an SSCCE >>>>> >> (http://sscce.org/), not something most people are going to bother >>>>> replying >>>>> >> to even if they could answer. I almost entirely ignore user@ >>>>> because there >>>>> >> are higher-priority channels like PRs to deal with, that already >>>>> have >>>>> >> hundreds of messages per day. This is why little of it gets an >>>>> answer -- too >>>>> >> noisy. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> We have to have official mailing lists, in any event, to have some >>>>> >> official channel for things like votes and announcements. It's not >>>>> wrong to >>>>> >> ask questions on user@ of course, but a lot of the questions I see >>>>> could >>>>> >> have been answered with research of existing docs or looking at the >>>>> code. I >>>>> >> think that given the scale of the list, it's not wrong to assert >>>>> that this >>>>> >> is sort of a prerequisite for asking thousands of people to answer >>>>> one's >>>>> >> question. But we can't enforce that. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The situation will get better to the extent people ask better >>>>> questions, >>>>> >> help other people ask better questions, and answer good questions. >>>>> I'd >>>>> >> encourage anyone feeling this way to try to help along those >>>>> dimensions. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 11:32 AM assaf.mendelson < >>>>> assaf.mendel...@rsa.com> >>>>> >> wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Hi, >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I know this is a little off topic but I wanted to raise an issue >>>>> about >>>>> >> handling questions in the mailing list (this is true both for the >>>>> user >>>>> >> mailing list and the dev but since there are other options such as >>>>> stack >>>>> >> overflow for user questions, this is more problematic in dev). >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Let’s say I ask a question (as I recently did). Unfortunately this >>>>> was >>>>> >> during spark summit in Europe so probably people were busy. In any >>>>> case no >>>>> >> one answered. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The problem is, that if no one answers very soon, the question will >>>>> almost >>>>> >> certainly remain unanswered because new messages will simply drown >>>>> it. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> This is a common issue not just for questions but for any comment >>>>> or idea >>>>> >> which is not immediately picked up. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I believe we should have a method of handling this. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Generally, I would say these types of things belong in stack >>>>> overflow, >>>>> >> after all, the way it is built is perfect for this. More seasoned >>>>> spark >>>>> >> contributors and committers can periodically check out unanswered >>>>> questions >>>>> >> and answer them. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The problem is that stack overflow (as well as other targets such >>>>> as the >>>>> >> databricks forums) tend to have a more user based orientation. This >>>>> means >>>>> >> that any spark internal question will almost certainly remain >>>>> unanswered. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I was wondering if we could come up with a solution for this. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Assaf. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> ________________________________ >>>>> >> >>>>> >> View this message in context: Handling questions in the mailing >>>>> lists >>>>> >> Sent from the Apache Spark Developers List mailing list archive at >>>>> >> Nabble.com. >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@spark.apache.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> > >
