That's the version of Obj-C. Linux is stuck on 1.9. Obj-c 2.0 released in 2006, as I'm sure you are aware. I can use this build https://github.com/plaurent/gnustep-build to create 2.1 on Linux. The FeeBSD is stuck at 2.0, as they no longer have a maintainer of their gnustep port.
On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:15 PM Gregory Casamento <greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: > Bruce, > > On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:57 AM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Something clicked (about 3 this morning) about version 1.9. I’ve assumed >> this was the version in the Linux repos due to their typical bureaucracy. >> But more research tells me that 2.1 cannot compile using gcc. I never >> choose gcc myself. But the linux repo maintenance tools such as Launchpad >> depend on it. So they are stuck on 1.9, which is generally referred to as >> obsolete. It’s a reason people tell me they don’t use gnustep. So I >> installed Ubuntu on my backup this morning, and instead of building >> gnustep, I installed 1.9, and the artifact issue goes away. >> >> > Where are you getting these version numbers from? The current releases > of gnustep libraries are as follows: > > gnustep-base: 1.28.0 > gnustep-gui: 0.30.0 > gnustep-back: 0.30.0 > gnustep-make: 2.9.1 > > I don't know what 1.9 and 2.1 are referring to. If you could clarify that > would be immensely helpful. > > Now I see the problem. 1.9 works, but few people use it. I’m not going to >> base a new project on something that is old and deprecated past >> obsolescence. FreeBSD uses a port of 2.0. >> >> My renewed interest in gnustep is due to a conversation with @gcasa on >> github. He was complaining that helloSystem didn’t consult with the gnustep >> project. He has a point, helloSystem is a reworking of the osx style >> desktop on freebsd. But I chimed in, and told him I didn’t think gnustep >> was viable. He took that personally, and it was the passion of his response >> that convinced me that gnustep was not dead. And I decided to either prove >> he was right or wrong. Unfortunately, I still think he’s wrong. >> > > It isn't, but you're going about this entirely the wrong way. I still > KNOW that you're wrong. Again, you haven't consulted anyone, asked for ANY > help on anything. Made assumptions and gone off in the wrong direction. > So you have proved NOTHING. Given GNUstep's use, as I have pointed out, > both commercially and many other places absolutely proves you incorrect. > > Originally, I looked at ObjFw. It uses Gtk or Qt for gui. But now I >> understand this: >> >> > Again, if you're looking for the ability to build macOS apps, ObjFw is NOT > the way. > > >> ‘It supports all modern Objective-C features when using Clang, but is >> also compatible with GCC ≥ 4.6 to allow maximum portability.’ >> > > As is GNUstep. We are a GNU project (it's in the name) we still support > GCC. Your failure to build with GCC is also something you never talked to > anyone about. You simply jumped to the conclusion that because you ran > into an issue on your system, it MUST not work. Please check on GitHub we > have CI running for every commit. It works fine with clang and gcc. Clang > is recommended since it fully supports ObjC2.0. This is a compiler thing, > not a framework thing. > > The main issue I have with ObjFw is lack of documentation. I have >> complained about this with gnustep as well, but then I found old O’Reilly >> books at the local thrift store that finally explained how that era of >> Cocoa worked, and I was able to move forward on gnustep. Until I started >> looking at more complex gui constructs, which is where it breaks down on >> Linux/FreeBSD. >> >> I’m back to the thought that gnustep is dead. Maybe not on the Mac or >> Windows. But on Linux/FreeBSD gnustep is effectively dead. And I’m back to >> csharp. >> > > Good for you, you're welcome to your own opinion even though it is wrong. > > As I mentioned in my previous email. All you have done here is come onto > our forum with the SAME statements you made previously in our discussion > regarding helloSystem on Git Hub. What you have failed to do as I pointed > out there and in my previous email is to properly engage the community. > This is a mistake many developers make (not just with us but with many > projects). I remain open to working with helloSystem, but as I detailed > previously, you need to do it constructively. Coming onto the mailing list > and complaining is not going to help your case. > > You are welcome to your (incorrect) opinion that GNUstep is "dead". I, > personally, don't know anyone who uses helloSystem so... I guess it's dead. > ;) > > GC > > >> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:23 AM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Yes, I’ve tried that. It doesn’t look good on any of the themes I’ve >>> found. I’d try making my own theme if I could find documentation… >>> >>> >>> But it does not address the bigger issue of artifacts. And it creates >>> the issue of menu confusion. I always look to the top corner of my screen - >>> no searching for menus. Then I would have to look for them on only certain >>> gnustep apps. Not a great interface. >>> >>> I’m mainly interested in creating apps for Linux/FreeBSD. I’m not >>> certain my screen lock program would even work on either Mac or Windows. >>> The same with other desktop oriented apps, such as a shortcut editor. I >>> haven’t used a Mac or Windows in 12 years since I left Microsoft. >>> >>> I agree that abandoning Cocoa seems wrong. But these bugs have been >>> there for a decade without getting fixed, and what I’m starting to think is >>> that this is just a linux issue. Until recently I had expected to hear that >>> gnustep was dead. The web site is half dead links, it was offline for a >>> while, and freshports shows that there is no longer a maintainer for >>> FreeBSD. The version on the Linux repos is considered dead because it’s the >>> old 1.9, so you have to build it manually to get the current version. Maybe >>> it only makes sense for Linux devs to use gtk. Or maybe they just continue >>> not using gnustep and I’m just the odd one out. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 10:07 PM Daniel Boyd <danieljb...@icloud.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Bruce, >>>> >>>> Have you tried >>>> defaults write NSGlobalDomain NSMenuInterfaceStyle >>>> NSWindows95InterfaceStyle >>>> >>>> That will put the menus at the top of each window. >>>> >>>> Abandoning cocoa doesn’t make much sense. What I think is absolutely a >>>> good idea would be someone adopting the gtk theme and giving it some love. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Dec 16, 2023, at 15:28, bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here are some examples >>>> >>>> >>>> Notice how the scroll bar splits as well. It also happens in >>>> prepackaged binary SystemPreferences.app: >>>> >>>> >>>> You can also see how the menu collides with a linux style global menu. >>>> This is on helloSystem. On GhostBSD-xfce, the scroll list artifacts are >>>> less pronounced, looking more like heavy underlines, but the menu collision >>>> still happens. Menu theme doesn’t align with the desktop. It’s jarring. >>>> What is more jarring is the ‘blip’ I get, a small rectangle that pops up >>>> momentarily, suspiciously the same size as the big icon, and then >>>> disappears when the main window appears. Xfce is the only desktop >>>> environment this ‘blip’ does not happen on. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:10 PM Gregory Casamento < >>>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bruce, >>>>> >>>>> I admit I looked at the mailing list and did see where you have made >>>>> comments both recently and a couple of years back regarding certain things >>>>> of interest. My apologies that you didn't get the response that you felt >>>>> you needed on some of these issues... >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 2:34 PM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Gregory, respectfully, I’ve been trying gnustep for the last decade, >>>>>> waiting for it to be ready, and getting frustrated. During that time I’ve >>>>>> had 5 different computers, and used about 10 linux distros, and the >>>>>> place I >>>>>> find gnustep working tolerably is on freebsd-xfce. Not too many >>>>>> artifacts, >>>>>> themes are working, but it still doesn’t integrate to the desktop - >>>>>> that’s >>>>>> a design issue , and I’m not asking you to change that, just consider an >>>>>> alternative. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I use GNUstep on Debian Linux at home (I have since Debian 9) and >>>>> Ubuntu 16-22 at work as well as Windows at work. All are tolerable work >>>>> environments. I use the Ubuntu and Windows instances mostly for >>>>> Keysight. On the windows side we use the Windows theme and it has never >>>>> been a problem for any of the clients that Keysight has using the Eggplant >>>>> software. Windows makes up approximately 90+% of their user-base. >>>>> >>>>> The artifact problems I refer to have been there all along, and I’ve >>>>>> talked on several forums to other users that run into them too. If no one >>>>>> on the project has ever noticed these issues, I don’t know what to say. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am familiar with some of the issues you mention. There are ways to >>>>> get around them. If you would like to discuss that I suggest you ask >>>>> about >>>>> which ones specifically. I may go back and answer some of your previous >>>>> emails. >>>>> >>>>> I bring up the archaic menu and there are 2 camps - one says use >>>>>> WindowMaker, and the other longs for something more modern - so i’m >>>>>> suggesting that you can kill 2 birds with one stone by using >>>>>> CoreGTK.framework >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well. Here is the thing. You may be under the misconception that >>>>> GNUstep is intended as a Desktop Environment. It isn't or, at least, it >>>>> hasn't been. GNUstep's major focus over these many years has been to be >>>>> as cross-platform as humanly possible. Arguably it has achieved that... >>>>> GNUstep currently runs on any POSIX-compliant OS, as well as Windows on >>>>> both MSYS2 and MSVC. >>>>> >>>>> The issue is that the project has left worrying about the "Desktop" to >>>>> other projects... (examples of this are Etoile -- defunct, GSDE, >>>>> NEXTSPACE, >>>>> etc). As such GNUstep is perceived as being "reluctant" to change the >>>>> default theme from the one many people claim is "Ugly". I find that >>>>> ironic >>>>> given that many OSs modeled their look AFTER NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP (Windows 95 >>>>> being the most prominent of these, as well as AmigaOS 2+). >>>>> >>>>> One of the things that has been discussed recently has been the >>>>> creation of a "Reference Distribution" on Linux and, possibly, other *BSD >>>>> platforms to allow us to better demonstrate what GNUstep is capable of >>>>> doing. >>>>> >>>>> What I can tell you will never happen is throwing out gnustep-gui in >>>>> favor of a replacement. Let's consider your suggestion of CoreGTK. If we >>>>> moved to that we would no longer have compatibility with macOS, also we >>>>> would not be able to use libs-xcode to build projects from macOS on >>>>> GNUstep >>>>> platforms. Additionally, the framework you suggest lacks many of the >>>>> widgets we already have so, while on the surface, it might seem like a >>>>> good >>>>> move it is simply not a viable solution. So, any notion of replacement >>>>> is >>>>> not one that we will consider under any circumstances. >>>>> >>>>> NOW, all of that being said... it is perfectly acceptable and possible >>>>> for you to port that framework to work with GNUstep. You don't have to >>>>> use >>>>> gnustep-gui if you don't wish to. That would be fairly awesome. There is >>>>> nothing that says you can't use any framework you wish in conjunction with >>>>> GNUstep. The more the merrier. :) >>>>> >>>>> Yours Sincerely, GC >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 6:14 PM Gregory Casamento < >>>>>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Bruce, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 10:34 AM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I love gnustep objective-c and Foundation. But the UI is pretty >>>>>>>> ugly. Theming fixes it cosmetically, but it doesn’t fix the real >>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>> The menu and main icon don’t really fit on any modern desktop. And the >>>>>>>> GUI >>>>>>>> itself is buggy, and leaves artifacts strewn all over the window. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am not sure what you mean by this. Instead of making general >>>>>>> statements like the above filing bug reports on github ( >>>>>>> https://github.com/gnustep) would be more useful as they would >>>>>>> provide more context to the actual issues you are referring to and also >>>>>>> help us address the problem you seem to be seeing. I have been lead >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> many years and use GNUstep every day, including with LARGE customers... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please see https://eggplant.io (Keysight) they have 1000s of >>>>>>> clients and their product is using GNUstep's master branch. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Additionally, there are some very attractive themes for GNUstep... >>>>>>> namely... >>>>>>> <gnustep-narcissus.png> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And... >>>>>>> <nesedah.png> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As well as the Windows theme... (on windows of course)... >>>>>>> <WinSavePanel_Full.jpg> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So tbh, I’ve been investigating GtkSharp, since dotnet8.0 is now >>>>>>>> available on linux, and is in ‘beta’ on freebsd. While investigating >>>>>>>> that, >>>>>>>> I discovered gtkcore, a gtk binding for gnustep. It has some minor >>>>>>>> issues, >>>>>>>> but not the magnitude of the issues with cocoa, and gtk is well known >>>>>>>> territory. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is a GtkTheme for GNUstep... >>>>>>> <55085-1.png> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://github.com/gnustep/plugins-themes-Gtk/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gtk is not my favorite toolkit, I would prefer a working cocoa, or >>>>>>> even qt. But the freebsd desktop uses it in xfce, and with gnustep >>>>>>> cocoa so >>>>>>> unusable, I’m thinking that gtkcore is now the only way ahead to develop >>>>>>> gui applications with gnustep. Or, I suppose you could fix cocoa - but >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> gets so much push back I’ve given up hope. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The best way to cooperate with the community is to file bugs and >>>>>>> give useful feedback -- which you have NOT done here. Simply saying "it >>>>>>> doesn't work" or "it's ugly" is not going to help because people need >>>>>>> SPECIFIC feedback to make things better. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PS. The Gtk and Windows themes both use NATIVE widgets from those >>>>>>> environments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yours Sincerely, GC >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Gregory Casamento >>>>>>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >>>>>>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >>>>>>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >>>>>>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Gregory Casamento >>>>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >>>>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >>>>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >>>>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Bruce Davidson >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Bruce Davidson >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Bruce Davidson >> >> > > -- > Gregory Casamento > GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant > http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com > https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron > https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings > -- Bruce Davidson
