Bruce, On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 8:43 AM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's the version of Obj-C. Linux is stuck on 1.9. Obj-c 2.0 released in > 2006, as I'm sure you are aware. > I am using 2.x on my Debian Linux 12 install here, but then again I am building from source. I can use this build https://github.com/plaurent/gnustep-build to create > 2.1 on Linux. The FeeBSD is stuck at 2.0, as they no longer have a > maintainer of their gnustep port. > Understood, as you mentioned before. I am not sure what to do to remedy that situation. GC On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:15 PM Gregory Casamento <greg.casame...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Bruce, >> >> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:57 AM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Something clicked (about 3 this morning) about version 1.9. I’ve assumed >>> this was the version in the Linux repos due to their typical bureaucracy. >>> But more research tells me that 2.1 cannot compile using gcc. I never >>> choose gcc myself. But the linux repo maintenance tools such as Launchpad >>> depend on it. So they are stuck on 1.9, which is generally referred to as >>> obsolete. It’s a reason people tell me they don’t use gnustep. So I >>> installed Ubuntu on my backup this morning, and instead of building >>> gnustep, I installed 1.9, and the artifact issue goes away. >>> >>> >> Where are you getting these version numbers from? The current releases >> of gnustep libraries are as follows: >> >> gnustep-base: 1.28.0 >> gnustep-gui: 0.30.0 >> gnustep-back: 0.30.0 >> gnustep-make: 2.9.1 >> >> I don't know what 1.9 and 2.1 are referring to. If you could clarify >> that would be immensely helpful. >> >> Now I see the problem. 1.9 works, but few people use it. I’m not going to >>> base a new project on something that is old and deprecated past >>> obsolescence. FreeBSD uses a port of 2.0. >>> >>> My renewed interest in gnustep is due to a conversation with @gcasa on >>> github. He was complaining that helloSystem didn’t consult with the gnustep >>> project. He has a point, helloSystem is a reworking of the osx style >>> desktop on freebsd. But I chimed in, and told him I didn’t think gnustep >>> was viable. He took that personally, and it was the passion of his response >>> that convinced me that gnustep was not dead. And I decided to either prove >>> he was right or wrong. Unfortunately, I still think he’s wrong. >>> >> >> It isn't, but you're going about this entirely the wrong way. I still >> KNOW that you're wrong. Again, you haven't consulted anyone, asked for ANY >> help on anything. Made assumptions and gone off in the wrong direction. >> So you have proved NOTHING. Given GNUstep's use, as I have pointed out, >> both commercially and many other places absolutely proves you incorrect. >> >> Originally, I looked at ObjFw. It uses Gtk or Qt for gui. But now I >>> understand this: >>> >>> >> Again, if you're looking for the ability to build macOS apps, ObjFw is >> NOT the way. >> >> >>> ‘It supports all modern Objective-C features when using Clang, but is >>> also compatible with GCC ≥ 4.6 to allow maximum portability.’ >>> >> >> As is GNUstep. We are a GNU project (it's in the name) we still support >> GCC. Your failure to build with GCC is also something you never talked to >> anyone about. You simply jumped to the conclusion that because you ran >> into an issue on your system, it MUST not work. Please check on GitHub we >> have CI running for every commit. It works fine with clang and gcc. Clang >> is recommended since it fully supports ObjC2.0. This is a compiler thing, >> not a framework thing. >> >> The main issue I have with ObjFw is lack of documentation. I have >>> complained about this with gnustep as well, but then I found old O’Reilly >>> books at the local thrift store that finally explained how that era of >>> Cocoa worked, and I was able to move forward on gnustep. Until I started >>> looking at more complex gui constructs, which is where it breaks down on >>> Linux/FreeBSD. >>> >>> I’m back to the thought that gnustep is dead. Maybe not on the Mac or >>> Windows. But on Linux/FreeBSD gnustep is effectively dead. And I’m back to >>> csharp. >>> >> >> Good for you, you're welcome to your own opinion even though it is wrong. >> >> As I mentioned in my previous email. All you have done here is come onto >> our forum with the SAME statements you made previously in our discussion >> regarding helloSystem on Git Hub. What you have failed to do as I pointed >> out there and in my previous email is to properly engage the community. >> This is a mistake many developers make (not just with us but with many >> projects). I remain open to working with helloSystem, but as I detailed >> previously, you need to do it constructively. Coming onto the mailing list >> and complaining is not going to help your case. >> >> You are welcome to your (incorrect) opinion that GNUstep is "dead". I, >> personally, don't know anyone who uses helloSystem so... I guess it's dead. >> ;) >> >> GC >> >> >>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:23 AM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, I’ve tried that. It doesn’t look good on any of the themes I’ve >>>> found. I’d try making my own theme if I could find documentation… >>>> >>>> >>>> But it does not address the bigger issue of artifacts. And it creates >>>> the issue of menu confusion. I always look to the top corner of my screen - >>>> no searching for menus. Then I would have to look for them on only certain >>>> gnustep apps. Not a great interface. >>>> >>>> I’m mainly interested in creating apps for Linux/FreeBSD. I’m not >>>> certain my screen lock program would even work on either Mac or Windows. >>>> The same with other desktop oriented apps, such as a shortcut editor. I >>>> haven’t used a Mac or Windows in 12 years since I left Microsoft. >>>> >>>> I agree that abandoning Cocoa seems wrong. But these bugs have been >>>> there for a decade without getting fixed, and what I’m starting to think is >>>> that this is just a linux issue. Until recently I had expected to hear that >>>> gnustep was dead. The web site is half dead links, it was offline for a >>>> while, and freshports shows that there is no longer a maintainer for >>>> FreeBSD. The version on the Linux repos is considered dead because it’s the >>>> old 1.9, so you have to build it manually to get the current version. Maybe >>>> it only makes sense for Linux devs to use gtk. Or maybe they just continue >>>> not using gnustep and I’m just the odd one out. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 10:07 PM Daniel Boyd <danieljb...@icloud.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Bruce, >>>>> >>>>> Have you tried >>>>> defaults write NSGlobalDomain NSMenuInterfaceStyle >>>>> NSWindows95InterfaceStyle >>>>> >>>>> That will put the menus at the top of each window. >>>>> >>>>> Abandoning cocoa doesn’t make much sense. What I think is absolutely a >>>>> good idea would be someone adopting the gtk theme and giving it some love. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 16, 2023, at 15:28, bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Here are some examples >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Notice how the scroll bar splits as well. It also happens in >>>>> prepackaged binary SystemPreferences.app: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You can also see how the menu collides with a linux style global menu. >>>>> This is on helloSystem. On GhostBSD-xfce, the scroll list artifacts are >>>>> less pronounced, looking more like heavy underlines, but the menu >>>>> collision >>>>> still happens. Menu theme doesn’t align with the desktop. It’s jarring. >>>>> What is more jarring is the ‘blip’ I get, a small rectangle that pops up >>>>> momentarily, suspiciously the same size as the big icon, and then >>>>> disappears when the main window appears. Xfce is the only desktop >>>>> environment this ‘blip’ does not happen on. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:10 PM Gregory Casamento < >>>>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Bruce, >>>>>> >>>>>> I admit I looked at the mailing list and did see where you have made >>>>>> comments both recently and a couple of years back regarding certain >>>>>> things >>>>>> of interest. My apologies that you didn't get the response that you felt >>>>>> you needed on some of these issues... >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 2:34 PM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Gregory, respectfully, I’ve been trying gnustep for the last decade, >>>>>>> waiting for it to be ready, and getting frustrated. During that time >>>>>>> I’ve >>>>>>> had 5 different computers, and used about 10 linux distros, and the >>>>>>> place I >>>>>>> find gnustep working tolerably is on freebsd-xfce. Not too many >>>>>>> artifacts, >>>>>>> themes are working, but it still doesn’t integrate to the desktop - >>>>>>> that’s >>>>>>> a design issue , and I’m not asking you to change that, just consider an >>>>>>> alternative. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I use GNUstep on Debian Linux at home (I have since Debian 9) and >>>>>> Ubuntu 16-22 at work as well as Windows at work. All are tolerable work >>>>>> environments. I use the Ubuntu and Windows instances mostly for >>>>>> Keysight. On the windows side we use the Windows theme and it has never >>>>>> been a problem for any of the clients that Keysight has using the >>>>>> Eggplant >>>>>> software. Windows makes up approximately 90+% of their user-base. >>>>>> >>>>>> The artifact problems I refer to have been there all along, and I’ve >>>>>>> talked on several forums to other users that run into them too. If no >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> on the project has ever noticed these issues, I don’t know what to say. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I am familiar with some of the issues you mention. There are ways to >>>>>> get around them. If you would like to discuss that I suggest you ask >>>>>> about >>>>>> which ones specifically. I may go back and answer some of your previous >>>>>> emails. >>>>>> >>>>>> I bring up the archaic menu and there are 2 camps - one says use >>>>>>> WindowMaker, and the other longs for something more modern - so i’m >>>>>>> suggesting that you can kill 2 birds with one stone by using >>>>>>> CoreGTK.framework >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Well. Here is the thing. You may be under the misconception that >>>>>> GNUstep is intended as a Desktop Environment. It isn't or, at least, it >>>>>> hasn't been. GNUstep's major focus over these many years has been to be >>>>>> as cross-platform as humanly possible. Arguably it has achieved that... >>>>>> GNUstep currently runs on any POSIX-compliant OS, as well as Windows on >>>>>> both MSYS2 and MSVC. >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue is that the project has left worrying about the "Desktop" >>>>>> to other projects... (examples of this are Etoile -- defunct, GSDE, >>>>>> NEXTSPACE, etc). As such GNUstep is perceived as being "reluctant" to >>>>>> change the default theme from the one many people claim is "Ugly". I >>>>>> find >>>>>> that ironic given that many OSs modeled their look AFTER >>>>>> NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP >>>>>> (Windows 95 being the most prominent of these, as well as AmigaOS 2+). >>>>>> >>>>>> One of the things that has been discussed recently has been the >>>>>> creation of a "Reference Distribution" on Linux and, possibly, other *BSD >>>>>> platforms to allow us to better demonstrate what GNUstep is capable of >>>>>> doing. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I can tell you will never happen is throwing out gnustep-gui in >>>>>> favor of a replacement. Let's consider your suggestion of CoreGTK. If >>>>>> we >>>>>> moved to that we would no longer have compatibility with macOS, also we >>>>>> would not be able to use libs-xcode to build projects from macOS on >>>>>> GNUstep >>>>>> platforms. Additionally, the framework you suggest lacks many of the >>>>>> widgets we already have so, while on the surface, it might seem like a >>>>>> good >>>>>> move it is simply not a viable solution. So, any notion of replacement >>>>>> is >>>>>> not one that we will consider under any circumstances. >>>>>> >>>>>> NOW, all of that being said... it is perfectly acceptable and >>>>>> possible for you to port that framework to work with GNUstep. You don't >>>>>> have to use gnustep-gui if you don't wish to. That would be fairly >>>>>> awesome. There is nothing that says you can't use any framework you wish >>>>>> in conjunction with GNUstep. The more the merrier. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Yours Sincerely, GC >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 6:14 PM Gregory Casamento < >>>>>>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Bruce, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 10:34 AM bruce < >>>>>>>> darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I love gnustep objective-c and Foundation. But the UI is pretty >>>>>>>>> ugly. Theming fixes it cosmetically, but it doesn’t fix the real >>>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>>> The menu and main icon don’t really fit on any modern desktop. And >>>>>>>>> the GUI >>>>>>>>> itself is buggy, and leaves artifacts strewn all over the window. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am not sure what you mean by this. Instead of making general >>>>>>>> statements like the above filing bug reports on github ( >>>>>>>> https://github.com/gnustep) would be more useful as they would >>>>>>>> provide more context to the actual issues you are referring to and also >>>>>>>> help us address the problem you seem to be seeing. I have been lead >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> many years and use GNUstep every day, including with LARGE customers... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please see https://eggplant.io (Keysight) they have 1000s of >>>>>>>> clients and their product is using GNUstep's master branch. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Additionally, there are some very attractive themes for GNUstep... >>>>>>>> namely... >>>>>>>> <gnustep-narcissus.png> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And... >>>>>>>> <nesedah.png> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As well as the Windows theme... (on windows of course)... >>>>>>>> <WinSavePanel_Full.jpg> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So tbh, I’ve been investigating GtkSharp, since dotnet8.0 is now >>>>>>>>> available on linux, and is in ‘beta’ on freebsd. While investigating >>>>>>>>> that, >>>>>>>>> I discovered gtkcore, a gtk binding for gnustep. It has some minor >>>>>>>>> issues, >>>>>>>>> but not the magnitude of the issues with cocoa, and gtk is well known >>>>>>>>> territory. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is a GtkTheme for GNUstep... >>>>>>>> <55085-1.png> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/gnustep/plugins-themes-Gtk/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gtk is not my favorite toolkit, I would prefer a working cocoa, or >>>>>>>> even qt. But the freebsd desktop uses it in xfce, and with gnustep >>>>>>>> cocoa so >>>>>>>> unusable, I’m thinking that gtkcore is now the only way ahead to >>>>>>>> develop >>>>>>>> gui applications with gnustep. Or, I suppose you could fix cocoa - but >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> gets so much push back I’ve given up hope. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The best way to cooperate with the community is to file bugs and >>>>>>>> give useful feedback -- which you have NOT done here. Simply saying >>>>>>>> "it >>>>>>>> doesn't work" or "it's ugly" is not going to help because people need >>>>>>>> SPECIFIC feedback to make things better. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PS. The Gtk and Windows themes both use NATIVE widgets from those >>>>>>>> environments. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yours Sincerely, GC >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Gregory Casamento >>>>>>>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >>>>>>>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >>>>>>>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >>>>>>>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Gregory Casamento >>>>>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >>>>>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >>>>>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >>>>>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Bruce Davidson >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Bruce Davidson >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Gregory Casamento >> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >> > > > -- > > Bruce Davidson > > -- Gregory Casamento GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings
