btw - I'm not associated with helloSystem other than as a user. On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 2:56 PM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux repo. I > couldn't get it to work, but it sounds like other people have under certain > circumstances. > Hm, I'll give that a try,. > But to build a product, I want to know that my users can install it > without all the monkey business. Otherwise it becomes a support nightmare. > > On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 2:44 PM Gregory Casamento < > greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Bruce, >> >> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 8:43 AM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> That's the version of Obj-C. Linux is stuck on 1.9. Obj-c 2.0 released >>> in 2006, as I'm sure you are aware. >>> >> >> I am using 2.x on my Debian Linux 12 install here, but then again I am >> building from source. >> >> I can use this build https://github.com/plaurent/gnustep-build to create >>> 2.1 on Linux. The FeeBSD is stuck at 2.0, as they no longer have a >>> maintainer of their gnustep port. >>> >> >> Understood, as you mentioned before. I am not sure what to do to remedy >> that situation. >> >> GC >> >> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:15 PM Gregory Casamento < >>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Bruce, >>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 7:57 AM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Something clicked (about 3 this morning) about version 1.9. I’ve >>>>> assumed this was the version in the Linux repos due to their typical >>>>> bureaucracy. But more research tells me that 2.1 cannot compile using gcc. >>>>> I never choose gcc myself. But the linux repo maintenance tools such as >>>>> Launchpad depend on it. So they are stuck on 1.9, which is generally >>>>> referred to as obsolete. It’s a reason people tell me they don’t use >>>>> gnustep. So I installed Ubuntu on my backup this morning, and instead of >>>>> building gnustep, I installed 1.9, and the artifact issue goes away. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Where are you getting these version numbers from? The current >>>> releases of gnustep libraries are as follows: >>>> >>>> gnustep-base: 1.28.0 >>>> gnustep-gui: 0.30.0 >>>> gnustep-back: 0.30.0 >>>> gnustep-make: 2.9.1 >>>> >>>> I don't know what 1.9 and 2.1 are referring to. If you could clarify >>>> that would be immensely helpful. >>>> >>>> Now I see the problem. 1.9 works, but few people use it. I’m not going >>>>> to base a new project on something that is old and deprecated past >>>>> obsolescence. FreeBSD uses a port of 2.0. >>>>> >>>>> My renewed interest in gnustep is due to a conversation with @gcasa on >>>>> github. He was complaining that helloSystem didn’t consult with the >>>>> gnustep >>>>> project. He has a point, helloSystem is a reworking of the osx style >>>>> desktop on freebsd. But I chimed in, and told him I didn’t think gnustep >>>>> was viable. He took that personally, and it was the passion of his >>>>> response >>>>> that convinced me that gnustep was not dead. And I decided to either prove >>>>> he was right or wrong. Unfortunately, I still think he’s wrong. >>>>> >>>> >>>> It isn't, but you're going about this entirely the wrong way. I still >>>> KNOW that you're wrong. Again, you haven't consulted anyone, asked for ANY >>>> help on anything. Made assumptions and gone off in the wrong direction. >>>> So you have proved NOTHING. Given GNUstep's use, as I have pointed out, >>>> both commercially and many other places absolutely proves you incorrect. >>>> >>>> Originally, I looked at ObjFw. It uses Gtk or Qt for gui. But now I >>>>> understand this: >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Again, if you're looking for the ability to build macOS apps, ObjFw is >>>> NOT the way. >>>> >>>> >>>>> ‘It supports all modern Objective-C features when using Clang, but is >>>>> also compatible with GCC ≥ 4.6 to allow maximum portability.’ >>>>> >>>> >>>> As is GNUstep. We are a GNU project (it's in the name) we still >>>> support GCC. Your failure to build with GCC is also something you never >>>> talked to anyone about. You simply jumped to the conclusion that because >>>> you ran into an issue on your system, it MUST not work. Please check on >>>> GitHub we have CI running for every commit. It works fine with clang and >>>> gcc. Clang is recommended since it fully supports ObjC2.0. This is a >>>> compiler thing, not a framework thing. >>>> >>>> The main issue I have with ObjFw is lack of documentation. I have >>>>> complained about this with gnustep as well, but then I found old O’Reilly >>>>> books at the local thrift store that finally explained how that era of >>>>> Cocoa worked, and I was able to move forward on gnustep. Until I started >>>>> looking at more complex gui constructs, which is where it breaks down on >>>>> Linux/FreeBSD. >>>>> >>>>> I’m back to the thought that gnustep is dead. Maybe not on the Mac or >>>>> Windows. But on Linux/FreeBSD gnustep is effectively dead. And I’m back to >>>>> csharp. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Good for you, you're welcome to your own opinion even though it is >>>> wrong. >>>> >>>> As I mentioned in my previous email. All you have done here is come >>>> onto our forum with the SAME statements you made previously in our >>>> discussion regarding helloSystem on Git Hub. What you have failed to do as >>>> I pointed out there and in my previous email is to properly engage the >>>> community. This is a mistake many developers make (not just with us but >>>> with many projects). I remain open to working with helloSystem, but as I >>>> detailed previously, you need to do it constructively. Coming onto the >>>> mailing list and complaining is not going to help your case. >>>> >>>> You are welcome to your (incorrect) opinion that GNUstep is "dead". I, >>>> personally, don't know anyone who uses helloSystem so... I guess it's dead. >>>> ;) >>>> >>>> GC >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 1:23 AM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I’ve tried that. It doesn’t look good on any of the themes I’ve >>>>>> found. I’d try making my own theme if I could find documentation… >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> But it does not address the bigger issue of artifacts. And it creates >>>>>> the issue of menu confusion. I always look to the top corner of my >>>>>> screen - >>>>>> no searching for menus. Then I would have to look for them on only >>>>>> certain >>>>>> gnustep apps. Not a great interface. >>>>>> >>>>>> I’m mainly interested in creating apps for Linux/FreeBSD. I’m not >>>>>> certain my screen lock program would even work on either Mac or Windows. >>>>>> The same with other desktop oriented apps, such as a shortcut editor. I >>>>>> haven’t used a Mac or Windows in 12 years since I left Microsoft. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree that abandoning Cocoa seems wrong. But these bugs have been >>>>>> there for a decade without getting fixed, and what I’m starting to think >>>>>> is >>>>>> that this is just a linux issue. Until recently I had expected to hear >>>>>> that >>>>>> gnustep was dead. The web site is half dead links, it was offline for a >>>>>> while, and freshports shows that there is no longer a maintainer for >>>>>> FreeBSD. The version on the Linux repos is considered dead because it’s >>>>>> the >>>>>> old 1.9, so you have to build it manually to get the current version. >>>>>> Maybe >>>>>> it only makes sense for Linux devs to use gtk. Or maybe they just >>>>>> continue >>>>>> not using gnustep and I’m just the odd one out. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 10:07 PM Daniel Boyd <danieljb...@icloud.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Bruce, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have you tried >>>>>>> defaults write NSGlobalDomain NSMenuInterfaceStyle >>>>>>> NSWindows95InterfaceStyle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That will put the menus at the top of each window. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Abandoning cocoa doesn’t make much sense. What I think is absolutely >>>>>>> a good idea would be someone adopting the gtk theme and giving it some >>>>>>> love. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Dec 16, 2023, at 15:28, bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here are some examples >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Notice how the scroll bar splits as well. It also happens in >>>>>>> prepackaged binary SystemPreferences.app: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can also see how the menu collides with a linux style global >>>>>>> menu. This is on helloSystem. On GhostBSD-xfce, the scroll list >>>>>>> artifacts >>>>>>> are less pronounced, looking more like heavy underlines, but the menu >>>>>>> collision still happens. Menu theme doesn’t align with the desktop. It’s >>>>>>> jarring. What is more jarring is the ‘blip’ I get, a small rectangle >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> pops up momentarily, suspiciously the same size as the big icon, and >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> disappears when the main window appears. Xfce is the only desktop >>>>>>> environment this ‘blip’ does not happen on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 8:10 PM Gregory Casamento < >>>>>>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bruce, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I admit I looked at the mailing list and did see where you have >>>>>>>> made comments both recently and a couple of years back regarding >>>>>>>> certain >>>>>>>> things of interest. My apologies that you didn't get the response >>>>>>>> that you >>>>>>>> felt you needed on some of these issues... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 2:34 PM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gregory, respectfully, I’ve been trying gnustep for the last >>>>>>>>> decade, waiting for it to be ready, and getting frustrated. During >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> time I’ve had 5 different computers, and used about 10 linux distros, >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the place I find gnustep working tolerably is on freebsd-xfce. Not >>>>>>>>> too many >>>>>>>>> artifacts, themes are working, but it still doesn’t integrate to the >>>>>>>>> desktop - that’s a design issue , and I’m not asking you to change >>>>>>>>> that, >>>>>>>>> just consider an alternative. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I use GNUstep on Debian Linux at home (I have since Debian 9) and >>>>>>>> Ubuntu 16-22 at work as well as Windows at work. All are tolerable >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> environments. I use the Ubuntu and Windows instances mostly for >>>>>>>> Keysight. On the windows side we use the Windows theme and it has >>>>>>>> never >>>>>>>> been a problem for any of the clients that Keysight has using the >>>>>>>> Eggplant >>>>>>>> software. Windows makes up approximately 90+% of their user-base. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The artifact problems I refer to have been there all along, and >>>>>>>>> I’ve talked on several forums to other users that run into them too. >>>>>>>>> If no >>>>>>>>> one on the project has ever noticed these issues, I don’t know what >>>>>>>>> to say. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am familiar with some of the issues you mention. There are ways >>>>>>>> to get around them. If you would like to discuss that I suggest you >>>>>>>> ask >>>>>>>> about which ones specifically. I may go back and answer some of your >>>>>>>> previous emails. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I bring up the archaic menu and there are 2 camps - one says use >>>>>>>>> WindowMaker, and the other longs for something more modern - so i’m >>>>>>>>> suggesting that you can kill 2 birds with one stone by using >>>>>>>>> CoreGTK.framework >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well. Here is the thing. You may be under the misconception that >>>>>>>> GNUstep is intended as a Desktop Environment. It isn't or, at least, >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> hasn't been. GNUstep's major focus over these many years has been to >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> as cross-platform as humanly possible. Arguably it has achieved >>>>>>>> that... >>>>>>>> GNUstep currently runs on any POSIX-compliant OS, as well as Windows on >>>>>>>> both MSYS2 and MSVC. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The issue is that the project has left worrying about the "Desktop" >>>>>>>> to other projects... (examples of this are Etoile -- defunct, GSDE, >>>>>>>> NEXTSPACE, etc). As such GNUstep is perceived as being "reluctant" to >>>>>>>> change the default theme from the one many people claim is "Ugly". I >>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>> that ironic given that many OSs modeled their look AFTER >>>>>>>> NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP >>>>>>>> (Windows 95 being the most prominent of these, as well as AmigaOS 2+). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One of the things that has been discussed recently has been the >>>>>>>> creation of a "Reference Distribution" on Linux and, possibly, other >>>>>>>> *BSD >>>>>>>> platforms to allow us to better demonstrate what GNUstep is capable of >>>>>>>> doing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What I can tell you will never happen is throwing out gnustep-gui >>>>>>>> in favor of a replacement. Let's consider your suggestion of CoreGTK. >>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>> we moved to that we would no longer have compatibility with macOS, >>>>>>>> also we >>>>>>>> would not be able to use libs-xcode to build projects from macOS on >>>>>>>> GNUstep >>>>>>>> platforms. Additionally, the framework you suggest lacks many of the >>>>>>>> widgets we already have so, while on the surface, it might seem like a >>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>> move it is simply not a viable solution. So, any notion of >>>>>>>> replacement is >>>>>>>> not one that we will consider under any circumstances. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NOW, all of that being said... it is perfectly acceptable and >>>>>>>> possible for you to port that framework to work with GNUstep. You >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> have to use gnustep-gui if you don't wish to. That would be fairly >>>>>>>> awesome. There is nothing that says you can't use any framework you >>>>>>>> wish >>>>>>>> in conjunction with GNUstep. The more the merrier. :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yours Sincerely, GC >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 6:14 PM Gregory Casamento < >>>>>>>>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Bruce, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 10:34 AM bruce < >>>>>>>>>> darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I love gnustep objective-c and Foundation. But the UI is pretty >>>>>>>>>>> ugly. Theming fixes it cosmetically, but it doesn’t fix the real >>>>>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>>>>> The menu and main icon don’t really fit on any modern desktop. And >>>>>>>>>>> the GUI >>>>>>>>>>> itself is buggy, and leaves artifacts strewn all over the window. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am not sure what you mean by this. Instead of making general >>>>>>>>>> statements like the above filing bug reports on github ( >>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/gnustep) would be more useful as they would >>>>>>>>>> provide more context to the actual issues you are referring to and >>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>> help us address the problem you seem to be seeing. I have been >>>>>>>>>> lead for >>>>>>>>>> many years and use GNUstep every day, including with LARGE >>>>>>>>>> customers... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Please see https://eggplant.io (Keysight) they have 1000s of >>>>>>>>>> clients and their product is using GNUstep's master branch. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Additionally, there are some very attractive themes for >>>>>>>>>> GNUstep... namely... >>>>>>>>>> <gnustep-narcissus.png> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And... >>>>>>>>>> <nesedah.png> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As well as the Windows theme... (on windows of course)... >>>>>>>>>> <WinSavePanel_Full.jpg> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> So tbh, I’ve been investigating GtkSharp, since dotnet8.0 is now >>>>>>>>>>> available on linux, and is in ‘beta’ on freebsd. While >>>>>>>>>>> investigating that, >>>>>>>>>>> I discovered gtkcore, a gtk binding for gnustep. It has some minor >>>>>>>>>>> issues, >>>>>>>>>>> but not the magnitude of the issues with cocoa, and gtk is well >>>>>>>>>>> known >>>>>>>>>>> territory. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is a GtkTheme for GNUstep... >>>>>>>>>> <55085-1.png> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/gnustep/plugins-themes-Gtk/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gtk is not my favorite toolkit, I would prefer a working cocoa, >>>>>>>>>> or even qt. But the freebsd desktop uses it in xfce, and with >>>>>>>>>> gnustep cocoa >>>>>>>>>> so unusable, I’m thinking that gtkcore is now the only way ahead to >>>>>>>>>> develop >>>>>>>>>> gui applications with gnustep. Or, I suppose you could fix cocoa - >>>>>>>>>> but that >>>>>>>>>> gets so much push back I’ve given up hope. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The best way to cooperate with the community is to file bugs and >>>>>>>>>> give useful feedback -- which you have NOT done here. Simply saying >>>>>>>>>> "it >>>>>>>>>> doesn't work" or "it's ugly" is not going to help because people need >>>>>>>>>> SPECIFIC feedback to make things better. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> PS. The Gtk and Windows themes both use NATIVE widgets from >>>>>>>>>> those environments. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yours Sincerely, GC >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Gregory Casamento >>>>>>>>>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >>>>>>>>>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >>>>>>>>>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Gregory Casamento >>>>>>>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >>>>>>>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >>>>>>>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >>>>>>>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory Casamento >>>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >>>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >>>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >>>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Bruce Davidson >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Gregory Casamento >> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >> > > > -- > > Bruce Davidson > > -- Bruce Davidson
