I completely understand. Gregory Casamento GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings
On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 16:10 bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> wrote: > You are misunderstanding my point. I have stock and deep connections at > microsoft. I don't want to mess anything up for anyone. If you were making > your own windows on windows, I don't want to see the code, remark that it > should work this way .... Low probability of anything ever happening, but > risk nonetheless. For both sides. > > When I left my employer and talked to a lawyer, he said that the ndas > lasts as long as the revenue, and beware, loose lips sink ships. My family > benefits from that revenue. > > btw - I also wait for the walk signal, I've never been oppressed, and have > no problem with the nda. I was well paid, put the kids through school, and > paid all their medical expenses. > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 8:45 PM Gregory Casamento < > greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> How would using any operating system you like let them down? Or even >> using whatever api? I imagine it has something to do with GNUstep having >> some connection with Apple, right? >> >> Look at it this way. GNUstep is trying to free the masses from the >> tyranny of our Jobsian oppressors. Does that help? ;) >> >> Gregory Casamento >> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 10:18 bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> No, they are fine with Linux . It's more about not letting them down. >>> Family comes first >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023, 6:45 AM Gregory Casamento < >>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Bruce, >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 9:34 AM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'd always assumed that gnustep used its own gui across systems. But >>>>> if you're using native controls on windows, my 'nda anxiety' is low. >>>>> Nothing I say about linux gui affects windows. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Assumption is the true enemy of understanding. :) Don't ask me where I >>>> got that quote from, I don't remember. You can either use >>>> GNUstep's own GUI or WinUXTheme (which uses native widgets) on Windows. >>>> The theme uses WinUXTheme.dll on Windows to interface with the native >>>> theming framework. >>>> >>>> You may think I'm overly paranoid about it. I don't work there anymore, >>>>> and I don't use windows anymore, but friends and family still work there, >>>>> so microsoft *is* family. I have to look them in the eye here in a few >>>>> days. >>>>> >>>> >>>> And they would have a problem with you exploring other things within >>>> your chosen profession? Windows does not comprise the entire computing >>>> ecosystem. It may be so on the common user's desktop, but not in the >>>> industry as a whole. Linux rules the server space in spite of what >>>> Microsoft might want you to believe. >>>> >>>> Speaking of which, tomorrow is Yule. After the new year I'll make a >>>>> clean repro and file a bug in github. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Sweet, I am looking forward to that. Also... just so you know, myself >>>> and Riccardo tried using XFCE with GNUstep and found a couple of >>>> interesting issues, but were not able to reproduce the artifacts you saw. >>>> Sometime between now and the end of the year I am going to give helloSystem >>>> a shot and see if I can make any sense of what you saw on there and if so, >>>> maybe we can address some of the issues you're experiencing. >>>> >>>> Yours, GC >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 5:40 PM Gregory Casamento < >>>>> greg.casame...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Bruce, >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 10:47 AM bruce <darkoverlordofd...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Riccardo, I can agree with everything you say. I’ve looked at >>>>>>> pictures of gnustep running on mac and windows, and it looks sleek and >>>>>>> modern, and native. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My experience on unix like does not track with that. It looks >>>>>>> brutalistic. Not native - it never fits in the desktop. What I hear from >>>>>>> most people that have tried it is “the 90’s are calling, they want their >>>>>>> desktop back”. I see a big disconnect between the way gnustep looks on >>>>>>> mac/windows, and the way it looks on linux/freebsd. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is, unfortunately, true. GNUstep is using native widgets on >>>>>> Windows, so it is very likely to look better on that platform. I, >>>>>> personally, don't mind the 90's look, but then again I have a NeXTstation >>>>>> to my left, so maybe I am not one to provide an unbiased opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, these are all aesthetic value judgements. But aesthetics matter >>>>>>> - ask any mac user. I can see if you’re using a business app, ok. But >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> other users, it is often a non-starter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My experience has been: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wow this is cool >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wow this has got a lot of gui glitches >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wow this looks old >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wow this is hard to use >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> WRITE BUG REPORTS!!! I'm hoping that is sinking in. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Install something else >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But I like the language. I’ve been coding c for 40 years, and objc >>>>>>> is awesome. I want to code the version with features like arc. >>>>>>> Fortunately, >>>>>>> the freebsd repo has that version. But the linux repos don’t. That >>>>>>> complicates targeting any app. And I want people to use my app. But >>>>>>> computer users see these gui issues, and say the app is buggy. I say >>>>>>> it’s >>>>>>> not my app, it’s the way it presents on your os. So they use another >>>>>>> app. >>>>>>> So much for platform agnostic. So much for marketability. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> GNUstep is platform agnostic from the sense that it is flexible >>>>>> enough to be made to blend in should the developer wish to make that >>>>>> happen. The community can't take all of the responsibility for making >>>>>> YOUR >>>>>> app fit in everywhere. Also, it is difficult when we are only a few >>>>>> people >>>>>> working on a large project such as this. The point is... help us, I >>>>>> know >>>>>> you have told me privately why you feel as though you can't contribute >>>>>> directly, but writing bug reports or even feature requests on github is >>>>>> something you CAN do. >>>>>> >>>>>> You can help us get there by simply reporting any issues you're >>>>>> seeing in the places I have asked you to do so. >>>>>> >>>>>> GC >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 3:00 PM Riccardo Mottola < >>>>>>> riccardo.mott...@libero.it> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> bruce wrote: >>>>>>>> > I've tried using libobjc2 with the other runtimes from the linux >>>>>>>> repo. I >>>>>>>> > couldn't get it to work, but it sounds like other people have >>>>>>>> under >>>>>>>> > certain circumstances. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Building libobjc2 can be from easy, "just works" to a nightmare, >>>>>>>> depending on a platform. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, of course, is if it comes ready for your OS. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Hm, I'll give that a try,. >>>>>>>> > But to build a product, I want to know that my users can install >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> > without all the monkey business. Otherwise it becomes a support >>>>>>>> nightmare. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> GCC almost always "just works" if the operating system provides it. >>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>> you don't need Obj-C2 features for your app, it is usually a very >>>>>>>> easy >>>>>>>> path and that's why I love it. Except FreeBSD, where you mention >>>>>>>> working. THhere the situation is complicated, because GCC provided >>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>> its obj-c runtime removed, supposing you to use libobjc2, which >>>>>>>> won't >>>>>>>> work. SO I abandoned that path, but compiled libobjc2 from sources. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Riccardo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Gregory Casamento >>>>>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >>>>>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >>>>>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >>>>>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >>>>>> >>>>>> [image: Mailtrack] >>>>>> <https://mailtrack.io?utm_source=gmail&utm_medium=signature&utm_campaign=signaturevirality11&;> >>>>>> Sender >>>>>> notified by >>>>>> Mailtrack >>>>>> <https://mailtrack.io?utm_source=gmail&utm_medium=signature&utm_campaign=signaturevirality11&;> >>>>>> 12/19/23, >>>>>> 12:35:33 PM >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Bruce Davidson >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Gregory Casamento >>>> GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant >>>> http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com >>>> https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron >>>> https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings >>>> >>> > > -- > > Bruce Davidson > >
