Thanks Hao! Best Regards, Federica Gazzelloni
On Tue, 18 Mar 2025 at 17:30, Hao Ye <[email protected]> wrote: > I’m curious if others have tried similar methods or have insights on >> striking the right balance between leveraging AI tools and preserving >> hands-on learning opportunities. > > > Hi Federica, > > If you hadn't seen it already, there was this thread that Lex started in > the slack last year on this topic - I think there are quite a few links to > examples > https://carpentries.slack.com/archives/C03LE48AY/p1713166328175869 > > Best, > -- > Hao Ye > (he/him/his) > [email protected] > > > On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 12:13 PM Federica Gazzelloni < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> This thread continues to highlight such important insights. I wanted to >> add another perspective, building on what’s been said. >> >> A key distinction I often emphasize in my own teaching is the >> relationship between effort and comprehension. It’s true that AI tools can >> make the process of problem-solving more efficient, but it’s also critical >> to ensure that learners are actively engaging with the concepts, rather >> than passively accepting solutions. >> >> One possible approach is introducing structured exercises that leverage >> AI as a learning companion. For instance: >> >> Students can use AI tools to draft initial code. >> >> They then analyze and critique the AI's output—identifying potential >> errors, inefficiencies, or areas for improvement. >> >> Finally, they optimize the code manually, applying their own knowledge to >> refine and debug. >> >> This strategy shifts the focus from simply generating output to >> understanding the "why" and "how" behind it. It also aligns with the >> growing need to teach "meta-skills" for interacting with AI: evaluating its >> reliability, fine-tuning its outputs, and balancing automation with human >> creativity. >> >> Hao's analogy with meal kits is particularly apt here—AI can provide the >> "ingredients" or the base recipe, but students still need to understand how >> to "cook," adapting the process to suit their specific needs or goals. This >> fosters a deeper understanding of the coding principles and encourages >> critical thinking. >> >> I’m curious if others have tried similar methods or have insights on >> striking the right balance between leveraging AI tools and preserving >> hands-on learning opportunities. >> >> Best, >> Federica >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 4:58 PM Hao Ye <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> If we only care about the end result (e.g. a function that computes >>>> something) and not the means to the end (e.g. how you compute something), >>>> it may be fine to teach an AI heavy methodology. We, as teachers, first >>>> have to decide what we want a student to learn before deciding the means to >>>> get them to that objective. We still teach mathematics to students even >>>> though we've been able to answer most all math questions through the >>>> college level with Wolfram Alpha for 15 years now and many things can be >>>> done on a calculator for 50 years now. >>> >>> >>> I am strongly in agreement with the distinction here between learning >>> programming vs. learning *some* set of skills whose end product is a >>> correct program. >>> >>> And because I like my cooking analogies, I'll add in an additional >>> metaphor of learning to cook vs. following the instructions in a meal kit. >>> >>> I am also reminded about the pedagogical literature findings that people >>> are bad at evaluating how much they've learned; and one of the common >>> estimators people use (that is biased) is how *easy* the learning was >>> (e.g. passively listening to a lecture vs. active learning). >>> >>> Best, >>> -- >>> Hao Ye >>> (he/him/his) >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 7:31 AM Jason Moore <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I think you have to carefully evaluate what the learning objectives are >>>> before deciding on AI or not or how much AI, etc. Take the analogy of >>>> learning an ancient way of making bowls by hand with wood versus learning >>>> how operate a manufacturing plant's bowl making machine. For the latter, >>>> you may not even need to know what a carving knife is or how the blade >>>> interacts with wood. In computer science, we have similar analogies tied to >>>> learning to code in assembly versus python. I can engineer a solution with >>>> either language and get something that does the same thing but I need >>>> different knowledge and understanding to succeed with each language. Of >>>> course we can teach students "how to code" using AI but they learn >>>> different things and the focus may mostly be on the product. If we only >>>> care about the end result (e.g. a function that computes something) and not >>>> the means to the end (e.g. how you compute something), it may be fine to >>>> teach an AI heavy methodology. We, as teachers, first have to decide what >>>> we want a student to learn before deciding the means to get them to that >>>> objective. We still teach mathematics to students even though we've been >>>> able to answer most all math questions through the college level with >>>> Wolfram Alpha for 15 years now and many things can be done on a calculator >>>> for 50 years now. If we want a student to know how every line in a program >>>> works, then they probably need to think about and write every line of that >>>> code. I listened to a recent podcast, the name is escaping me, where the >>>> caster lamented on students using AI to get the product, a written essay, >>>> but not learning how to write. Do we really want to stop teaching people >>>> how to write because a computer can write things? >>>> >>>> Jason >>>> moorepants.info >>>> +01 530-601-9791 >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 11:25 AM Paola Di Maio <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Simon, and Toby whose sentiment is echoed- >>>>> >>>>> thanks for the discussion points >>>>> >>>>> In my personal experience, it is important to use the new tools >>>>> responsibly and intelligently. >>>>> if they can help us learn faster and better. Because there is too much >>>>> to learn, esp for younger generations >>>>> There is a race going on, and machines can give us some edge >>>>> >>>>> I feel that my mission is how to teach how to use AI responsibly* and >>>>> critically* >>>>> >>>>> which in fact is true of any technology, starting from evaluating >>>>> critically search results of any query >>>>> >>>>> So rather than saying do not use AI code generators, I d say >>>>> >>>>> a) continue to learn how to code, but use that knowledge >>>>> to write good prompts for the code generators and >>>>> b) learn how to evaluate debug, proof, test, implement, integrate, >>>>> test. evaluate, optimise code >>>>> *shameless self promotion: I teach a course on responsible use of AI >>>>> if anyone is interested/able to collaborate with me on offering it >>>>> >>>>> By all means we must continue to learn and teach how to code - bur we >>>>> do not have to do the work ourselves >>>>> we become supervisors, system integrators etc >>>>> >>>>> How to use code generators to produce the code we want/need and how to >>>>> evaluate the qualify of ai generated code? >>>>> how to evaluate the output of any technology mediated process,really, >>>>> is what I think we help learners with >>>>> >>>>> I attach three relevant short posts in PDF from my feed >>>>> *disclaimer A*I supported, let me know if you spot terrible wrongs* >>>>> >>>>> for general interest/discussion and it would be great to connect over >>>>> our shared experiences >>>>> of using AI tor teaching/learning >>>>> >>>>> PDM >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 5:26 PM Waldman, Simon via discuss < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think the reasoning behind the “don’t use AI when you’re learning” >>>>>> comment is that there is a risk that people simply use code that they are >>>>>> given without thinking about it, and therefore don’t build a mental model >>>>>> of what is going on, don’t learn, and hence are unable to spot mistakes >>>>>> by >>>>>> the AI or build more advanced things. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> In a sense, I think it’s best to think of AI coding assistance as a >>>>>> more advanced version of “look it up on StackOverflow”. We have all come >>>>>> across plenty of people who have done all their coding by copy-pasting >>>>>> snippets from StackOverflow without fully understanding them – as well as >>>>>> people who have laid the groundwork by learning what they are doing >>>>>> first, >>>>>> and **then** looked things up to much better effect. I think this is >>>>>> especially important for a first language – when one is learning >>>>>> programming as well as a particular syntax. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> That’s my 2p; clearly “don’t use AI” is not enforceable and won’t be >>>>>> adhered to by many, but it’s important that we explain the reason that >>>>>> that >>>>>> advice is given (and maybe consider moderating it to “limit use of AI” or >>>>>> similar) so that hopefully most learners will bear it in mind. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr Simon Waldman / [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> Assistant Professor of Energy Technologies, Heriot-Watt University >>>>>> >>>>>> Programme lead for MSc Renewable & Sustainable Energy Transition >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* Paola Di Maio <[email protected]> >>>>>> *Sent:* 16 March 2025 22:46 >>>>>> *To:* discuss <[email protected]> >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [cp-discuss] Re: Feedback Request: Lesson Updates on >>>>>> Generative AI >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ****************************************************************** >>>>>> *Caution: This email originated from a sender outside Heriot-Watt >>>>>> University. Do not follow links or open attachments if you doubt the >>>>>> authenticity of the sender or the content. * >>>>>> * ***************************************************************** >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you Toby and all for the discussion >>>>>> >>>>>> it is an important one, at many levels >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have always detested coding, comparing it to unnecessary >>>>>> bricklaying vs me being interested in information architectures >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> When AI generated code became available I felt relief, the finally >>>>>> humanity has found a way of avoiding coding by hand >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My question is: is the AI generated code as good as, better or worse >>>>>> than humanly written code? >>>>>> >>>>>> Having the code written up already means learners must learn how to >>>>>> implement it and run it correctly >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> can it be used to learn/teach about coding more productively - ie >>>>>> engaging learners to Implement debug, test, maniupate, evaluate the ai >>>>>> generated output >>>>>> >>>>>> and how to correct it and improve it, rather than putting their >>>>>> effort into writing >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> AI generated code could allow learners to move straight into the >>>>>> next level of coding, that is implementation >>>>>> >>>>>> Thorough understanding of how the syntax and logic of the program >>>>>> should still be required, but the human intelligence >>>>>> >>>>>> so rare and precious can be spared the tedious task of actually >>>>>> writing it >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 6:21 AM Paul Harrison via discuss < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Toby, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm following this ongoing discussion with interest. Great to see >>>>>> this being added to Carpentries material. >>>>>> >>>>>> We recommend that you avoid getting help from generative AI while you >>>>>> learn to code >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I was a bit surprised by this negative conclusion. My feeling would >>>>>> be that it isn't reasonable to expect people not to use these tools while >>>>>> learning, and therefore they need to know how to use them safely. And >>>>>> they >>>>>> do seem quite good at explaining code or suggesting different approaches. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's a slide I used in a recent workshop, although I'm far from >>>>>> 100% happy with it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://monashdatafluency.github.io/r-progtidy/slides/introduction.html#11 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Founded in 1821, Heriot-Watt is a leader in ideas and solutions. With >>>>>> campuses and students across the entire globe we span the world, >>>>>> delivering >>>>>> innovation and educational excellence in business, engineering, design >>>>>> and >>>>>> the physical, social and life sciences. This email is generated from the >>>>>> Heriot-Watt University Group, which includes: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Heriot-Watt University, a Scottish charity registered under >>>>>> number SC000278 >>>>>> 2. Heriot- Watt Services Limited (Oriam), Scotland's national >>>>>> performance centre for sport. Heriot-Watt Services Limited is a >>>>>> private >>>>>> limited company registered is Scotland with registered number >>>>>> SC271030 and >>>>>> registered office at Research & Enterprise Services Heriot-Watt >>>>>> University, >>>>>> Riccarton, Edinburgh, EH14 4AS. >>>>>> >>>>>> The contents (including any attachments) are confidential. If you are >>>>>> not the intended recipient of this e-mail, any disclosure, copying, >>>>>> distribution or use of its contents is strictly prohibited, and you >>>>>> should >>>>>> please notify the sender immediately and then delete it (including any >>>>>> attachments) from your system. >>>>>> >>>>>> This list is for the purpose of general discussion about The > Carpentries including community activities, upcoming events, and > announcements. Some other lists you may also be interested in include > discuss-hpc, discuss-r, and our local groups. Visit > https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/ to learn more. All activity on > this and other Carpentries spaces should abide by The Carpentries Code of > Conduct found here: > https://docs.carpentries.org/topic_folders/policies/code-of-conduct.html > *The Carpentries <https://carpentries.topicbox.com/latest>* / discuss / > see discussions <https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss> + > participants <https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/members> + > delivery options > <https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/subscription> Permalink > <https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/T032962510fa76492-Mc13d77cc51b31e2e6952a015> > ------------------------------------------ This list is for the purpose of general discussion about The Carpentries including community activities, upcoming events, and announcements. Some other lists you may also be interested in include discuss-hpc, discuss-r, and our local groups. Visit https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/ to learn more. All activity on this and other Carpentries spaces should abide by The Carpentries Code of Conduct found here: https://docs.carpentries.org/topic_folders/policies/code-of-conduct.html The Carpentries: discuss Permalink: https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/T032962510fa76492-M94bd8bc620350a85ec1bf8aa Delivery options: https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/subscription
