Greetings, Toby. This is a crucial matter. Using genAI to help in coding is similar also to using it for writing a journal article and other forms of essay or for getting pictures/videos up. It's unintellectual and deceptive to swallow line, hook and sinker everything genAI generates. A user needs the ability to detect errors, irrelevance and even omission of pertinent points.
As someone here pointed out, getting everyone to comply with a ban on its use while learning, or even while teaching, is near impossible. Learning R or Python or another program with genAI is, nevertheless, not a helpful approach. In fact, no learning there at all, because the person will have great difficulty in understanding what genAI churns out. The Carpentries' learners need to commit to acquiring basic coding knowledge and skills. These are what will enable them to vet genAI results to know when genAI is right or wrong at a later stage they choose to seek genAI's help. As Sarah beautifully caps it: "people cannot really test their knowledge of the underlying concepts that you still need to know when you work with AI assistance." Sincerely, On Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 10:26 AM Waldman, Simon via discuss < [email protected]> wrote: > I think the reasoning behind the “don’t use AI when you’re learning” > comment is that there is a risk that people simply use code that they are > given without thinking about it, and therefore don’t build a mental model > of what is going on, don’t learn, and hence are unable to spot mistakes by > the AI or build more advanced things. > > > > In a sense, I think it’s best to think of AI coding assistance as a more > advanced version of “look it up on StackOverflow”. We have all come across > plenty of people who have done all their coding by copy-pasting snippets > from StackOverflow without fully understanding them – as well as people who > have laid the groundwork by learning what they are doing first, and * > *then** looked things up to much better effect. I think this is > especially important for a first language – when one is learning > programming as well as a particular syntax. > > > > That’s my 2p; clearly “don’t use AI” is not enforceable and won’t be > adhered to by many, but it’s important that we explain the reason that that > advice is given (and maybe consider moderating it to “limit use of AI” or > similar) so that hopefully most learners will bear it in mind. > > > > -- > > Dr Simon Waldman / [email protected] > > Assistant Professor of Energy Technologies, Heriot-Watt University > > Programme lead for MSc Renewable & Sustainable Energy Transition > > > > *From:* Paola Di Maio <[email protected]> > *Sent:* 16 March 2025 22:46 > *To:* discuss <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [cp-discuss] Re: Feedback Request: Lesson Updates on > Generative AI > > > > > ****************************************************************** > *Caution: This email originated from a sender outside Heriot-Watt > University. Do not follow links or open attachments if you doubt the > authenticity of the sender or the content. * > * ***************************************************************** > > > > Thank you Toby and all for the discussion > > it is an important one, at many levels > > > > I have always detested coding, comparing it to unnecessary bricklaying vs > me being interested in information architectures > > > > When AI generated code became available I felt relief, the finally > humanity has found a way of avoiding coding by hand > > > > My question is: is the AI generated code as good as, better or worse than > humanly written code? > > Having the code written up already means learners must learn how to > implement it and run it correctly > > > > can it be used to learn/teach about coding more productively - ie engaging > learners to Implement debug, test, maniupate, evaluate the ai generated > output > > and how to correct it and improve it, rather than putting their effort > into writing > > > > AI generated code could allow learners to move straight into the next > level of coding, that is implementation > > Thorough understanding of how the syntax and logic of the program should > still be required, but the human intelligence > > so rare and precious can be spared the tedious task of actually writing it > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 6:21 AM Paul Harrison via discuss < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Toby, > > I'm following this ongoing discussion with interest. Great to see this > being added to Carpentries material. > > We recommend that you avoid getting help from generative AI while you > learn to code > > > > I was a bit surprised by this negative conclusion. My feeling would be > that it isn't reasonable to expect people not to use these tools while > learning, and therefore they need to know how to use them safely. And they > do seem quite good at explaining code or suggesting different approaches. > > > > Here's a slide I used in a recent workshop, although I'm far from 100% > happy with it. > > https://monashdatafluency.github.io/r-progtidy/slides/introduction.html#11 > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Founded in 1821, Heriot-Watt is a leader in ideas and solutions. With > campuses and students across the entire globe we span the world, delivering > innovation and educational excellence in business, engineering, design and > the physical, social and life sciences. This email is generated from the > Heriot-Watt University Group, which includes: > > 1. Heriot-Watt University, a Scottish charity registered under number > SC000278 > 2. Heriot- Watt Services Limited (Oriam), Scotland's national > performance centre for sport. Heriot-Watt Services Limited is a private > limited company registered is Scotland with registered number SC271030 and > registered office at Research & Enterprise Services Heriot-Watt University, > Riccarton, Edinburgh, EH14 4AS. > > The contents (including any attachments) are confidential. If you are not > the intended recipient of this e-mail, any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of its contents is strictly prohibited, and you should > please notify the sender immediately and then delete it (including any > attachments) from your system. > > This list is for the purpose of general discussion about The Carpentries > including community activities, upcoming events, and announcements. Some > other lists you may also be interested in include discuss-hpc, discuss-r, > and our local groups. Visit https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/ to > learn more. All activity on this and other Carpentries spaces should abide > by The Carpentries Code of Conduct found here: > https://docs.carpentries.org/topic_folders/policies/code-of-conduct.html > *The Carpentries <https://carpentries.topicbox.com/latest>* / discuss / > see discussions <https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss> + > participants <https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/members> + > delivery options > <https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/subscription> Permalink > <https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/Tcd00cc2e2d640548-M8b3f5305f1aea430e788ca7e> > > ------------------------------------------ This list is for the purpose of general discussion about The Carpentries including community activities, upcoming events, and announcements. Some other lists you may also be interested in include discuss-hpc, discuss-r, and our local groups. Visit https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/ to learn more. All activity on this and other Carpentries spaces should abide by The Carpentries Code of Conduct found here: https://docs.carpentries.org/topic_folders/policies/code-of-conduct.html The Carpentries: discuss Permalink: https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/Tdbbca9597a63abaa-M2234f7611fd2c29d09a74fee Delivery options: https://carpentries.topicbox.com/groups/discuss/subscription
