-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Fonzie,
I have followed this thread with interest and in the process, i got a little centimental as i began to remember the good old Outspoken days. As that screen reader had no support for braille, in addition to the speech it provided a lot of sounds, beeps, static sounds and the like. They had a feature which i think would come in handy for this. They marked the insertion points place in the word with a beep if you issued a certain command, so if you had the cursor inbetween the two "l"s in "hello", the result of this command would be something like: "h, e, l" beep "l, o" if you see what i'm trying to get at. Now wouldn't it be a great idea to forward to Apple accessibility to have an option in Voiceover to mark the insertion points place in a word with a beep when spelling the word or somesuch? /Krister On, at [GMT] (which was 01:26 where I live) you wrote:: F> Hello all, and Chris, how are you doing? F> I hope all is well. F> Okay Chris, let's see if this will help you out. F> firstly, I can vouch for not having an issue with ever editing F> documents, or edit boxes. I only switched to a mac in August, and I F> never had any issues in dealing with cursors itself. F> I will try and explain this as best I can. F> From here on out, I would like you to open a text edit document, and F> do the following. F> Type out, Hello how are you doing? F> Okay, now I would like you to do the following... F> After you type out that particular sentence, please hold command, and F> hit left arrow to wrap back to the beginning of your sentence. Now, F> release, and follow my explanation. F> Now, your cursor is sitting directly at the beginning of your F> sentence. So, you cursor will be sitting in front of your letter H in F> the word Hello. So, from now on, when thinking of whre you move your F> cursor, you will be working either ahead, or behind the document. For F> easier purposes, you will be working to the right of your document, F> should you move your cursor forward, or to the left, if you move your F> cursor to the left. F> Now, let's do the following. We are only going to work with the word F> Hello, and nothing more. This will give you good practice, and you F> will hopefully see that this is not a bug at all. F> Try moving your cursor quickly to the right and left of the characters F> in Hello. If you move quickly to the right, past the letters H E L L F> O, you will hear each letter in individual succession, letting you F> know that you passed that current letter, now, quickly hit your left F> arrow, and your cursor will now start letting you know what you are F> passing over on the left. So, we first moved are cursor to the right, F> in which it announced H E L L O, now as soon as we move to the left, F> you will hear O L L E H, indicating, you are passing over these F> particular letters. F> This is what you will have to get used to while editing on the mac. F> So, now let's practice editing work. Let's try changing the word F> Hello into a name. F> Let's use, Helen for our example. When you get done with this F> sentence, it will read, Helen how are you doing? The former sentence F> was, Hello how are you doing? F> So, remember, we are at the most left of the document, indicating that F> your cursor is now to the left of the letter H. F> Now, let's get down to editing the word Hello. Firstly, let's F> describe what happends as you actually move the cursor. Press your F> right arrow once and you will hear H again, if you press it left once F> more, you will hear H again. The reason for this is because, you are F> telling the cursor, to be positioned to the left or right of a F> character respectively. F> This is so that, you know where you are heading into your current F> document, and where the cursor will be traveling too. Should you F> press right, the cursor will always be right after the current F> character being heard, should you press left, the cursor will be F> positioned to the left of the character being spoken. So, when you F> heard H when you pressed your right arrow, your cursor was put in F> front of the letter H, and VO said H, thus, when putting your cursor F> left, by itting the left arrow, you heard H again, siply because your F> cursor was being put before H, and you are still on the letter H. F> Furthermore, if you just continued tapping right arrow, you would have F> heard the individual letters being spoken, while keeping in mind that F> every time you move right, the cursor is being put after the character F> being spoken, and works the same if you press the left arrow. So, if F> you pause for any instance, at any particular letter, and press left F> once, and or right once, you will still hear the same letter being F> spoken to you. This is the same as I have spoken above. F> So, now let's edit Hello to Helen. Press left arrow, to make sure you F> are at the beginning of the word Hello, or until you hear H. Now, F> immediately press right arrow, until you hear O. Delete until you F> hear O, L, and simply replace with E, N. There, we did it. F> So, if your doing any editing work at all, remember, that you are F> pressing the right arrow to be placed ahead of a character, where as F> left places you behind thecharacter. F> I hope this helps. F> Remember, this is not a user bug at all, and the way this was designed F> truely works the way it should be working. F> On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:16 PM, Scott Howell wrote: >> David, your correct, but what we need to explain is that in fact >> this is because VO is different than windows-based screen readers. I >> agree this is a bit tricky to get used to initially, but you will >> get the hang of it. I don't know how to explain this so it makes >> sense, but if you come up to a word, you hear the first letter, if >> you back up with the left arrow, you will be just to the right of >> the character. You will hear it seemingly speak double characters, >> but it's how the cursor moves and not a VO bug. Someone with much >> greater literary skills can probably make this easier to understand, >> but trust me, it's something you get used to and it'll make sense. >> On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:19 PM, David Poehlman wrote: >>> this is a user issue. It is not a bug. My suggestion is practice. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Christopher Gilland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:09 PM >>> Subject: Fw: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes. >>> I sent this to Apple Accessibility. >>> Do any of yall have any thoughts? >>> Chris. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Christopher Gilland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:04 PM >>> Subject: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes. >>>> I am a voiceover user using Leopard 10.5.5. >>>> I have noticed this issue as far back as the first release of Tiger. >>>> Basically, it's gonna be hard for me to type out what is >>>> happening, being >>>> this is more an auditory based thing, so try to stick with me on >>>> this. I >>>> really hope I don't confuse you all. >>>> OK, I have a document up, o... let's just say, in, o? I dunno. >>>> Text Edit, >>>> we'll just say for sakes being. >>>> OK, I have typed the following line of text in a new, blank text >>>> document. >>>> Please pay extremely close attention to how I've typed this both >>>> gramatically, and also spelling: >>>> The colors of tHe flag r red. white. and blUe? >>>> Boy, this sentence is r'r'r'really! messed up! >>>> Let's edit it. >>>> OK, I go to the beginning of that line with command+left arrow. >>>> I hear the word, The. >>>> OK, so now I move word by word, with option right arrow. >>>> The >>>> colors >>>> of >>>> tHe >>>> Whoops? We gotta booboo here. OK, so, I hit right arrow. >>>> I hear space. UM? OK? >>>> I hit left arrow. I hear again: Space. What in the heck? >>>> I hit left arrow again. I hear E. aa, K. now we're getting >>>> there. I >>>> left arrow again. I hear cap H. There we go. I need to delete >>>> this and >>>> put a lower case h, instead of capital. So I hit the delete key, >>>> then >>>> type lower case h. >>>> Now, if I read the current line with vo+L, I hear: >>>> hhe colors of tHe flag r red. white. and blUe? >>>> What? in the world? Why did it do? that! >>>> I called a friend for help, and what he told me is the following. >>>> I've >>>> pasted his response below: >>>> Wo wo wol Chris! Hold on here. Wol! Ur'r'r'rk? >>>> Um? You're kind a failing to see something here: You're thinking >>>> Windows >>>> again. Stop doing that. Voiceover, thank God, doesn't work like >>>> JAWS. >>>> You can't edit that way. The thing is, Chris, as you left and right >>>> arrow, you know how in Windows, your insertion point is gonna be >>>> right on >>>> the actual character that it speaks? Well, un? fortunately, in >>>> Voiceover, >>>> it's not quite that simple. In VO, it is actually reading to you >>>> the >>>> character that your insertion point passes over, rather than the way >>>> Windows does it, with jfw, by reading the character you're sitting >>>> on. >>>> This is why when you hit the left arrow then delete, it did what >>>> it did. >>>> Let's say, Chris, that you type the word Hello, but instead of h, >>>> e, l, l, >>>> o, you did: h, e, k, k, o. Hekko? What the hell kind a word is >>>> that! >>>> So, you wanna get rid of those two k's, and replace them with >>>> l's. Right? >>>> OK, What I'd! do, Chris, is I would option right arrow, until I hear >>>> Hekko. Now remember, Chris, you're not on the word Hekko. Because >>>> you >>>> were working to the right in the document, where are you really? >>>> cor, >>>> rect! You're to the right! of the word hekko. That is definitely >>>> not >>>> where we wanna be, is it? So hit option left arrow one time. >>>> You'll hear >>>> again: Hekko. Can you explain to me Chris, why that is? The >>>> reason's, >>>> because now, you moved to the left! of the word Hekko. See... >>>> you're not >>>> on the word actually. That's where you're getting confused. On >>>> the Mac, >>>> unlike in Windows, there is! no such thing, as being quote, >>>> unquote, on! a >>>> character/word. You have to be on either trailing side of it, and >>>> depending on whether you've done left arrow, or right arrow, will >>>> determine which side you're on. OK, so now. We're to the left of >>>> the >>>> word Hekko. hit you're right arrow. You'll hear cap H. however, >>>> watch >>>> this. read your current character with vo+C. Did you see what it >>>> did? It >>>> said E. It didn't say H did it. ok, now hit left arrow. What >>>> did you >>>> hear? You heard E again didn't you. Now, hit vo C. Notice it >>>> said H? >>>> See? it's telling you what your cursor passed over! not! what it's >>>> actually on. so hit right arrow once. You heard E. Actually >>>> though, it >>>> passed the letter e, and since you're working to the right, it now >>>> is >>>> sitting on the right side of the letter E. So I betcha, if you >>>> now hit vo >>>> C, it'll say K. See that? You're now actually sitting on the first >>>> letter K in Hekko. So, hit your delete key twice. now, type ll. >>>> Now read the current line with vo+L. >>>> Hello >>>> See? Mission accomplished! >>>> End of response from my friend. >>>> God! blessid! That confused me. I don't totally get what he's >>>> saying >>>> about it passing over things etc. That's driving me to drinking, >>>> as I >>>> can't hardly edit a document this way. >>>> Is there any way to think about this differently, or at least, >>>> maybe a way >>>> in a future update, maybe under navigation in the vo utility, yall >>>> could >>>> make a checkbox, to make it behave more like Windows and speak >>>> what it's >>>> actually under instead of what it passes? God. I'm sure I'm not >>>> the >>>> first newly migrating user from Windows to a Mac, who's ran into >>>> this. I >>>> dono if it's a bug, that yall didn't really fix, as most people >>>> don't >>>> really seem to care, they just deal with it, or if you all >>>> purposefully >>>> made it this way, but no offense. In all do respect though guys, >>>> this! is >>>> outstandingly disgusting! >>>> Ewww! Yoyk! You can imagine for people who have to work in other >>>> languages that don't use the standard lattin based alphebet, you can >>>> imagine for someone like that, how Godly hard this would be to edit. >>>> Say in Arabic, you're wanting to type Allah. >>>> Yes, you could do: A, l, l, A, h. but what if you're really typing >>>> arabic. >>>> Alif, lam, lam, heh. >>>> now that is Not! gonna read with vo if you use the actual Arabic >>>> letters, >>>> so, editting that? being you don't know what you're literally, on, >>>> as it's >>>> passing things, not reporting what you're sitting on? Now you got >>>> yourself a double! challenge. Trying first to figure out what >>>> characters >>>> you got, and B, figuring out where your cursor really truely is >>>> sitting, >>>> not what it's passed over. >>>> just, ya know: >>>> Be aware of this. It is something that I really think you all may >>>> wanna >>>> consider looking into as it's so confusing to me, it's almost >>>> making me >>>> scared of Leopard, and really wanna use it less and less. It just >>>> cfeels >>>> so awquard! Any suggestions? >>>> Chris. >> Scott Howell >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -- /Krister [EMAIL PROTECTED] Get pgp keys here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFJLT7bRWsKDrvnacURAkB8AJ4i/oQQnahw+uGstjW8XfdzL2LqdQCcCtsk U9sn+gIb7bxe/lYb+189kiY= =kVo+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
