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Hi Fonzie,
I have followed this thread with interest and in the process, i got
a little centimental as i began to remember the good old Outspoken
days. As that screen reader had no support for braille, in addition
to the speech it provided a lot of sounds, beeps, static sounds and
the like. They had a feature which i think would come in handy for
this. They marked the insertion points place in the word with a beep
if you issued a certain command, so if you had the cursor inbetween
the two "l"s in "hello", the result of this command would be
something like: "h, e, l" beep "l, o" if you see what i'm trying to
get at. Now wouldn't it be a great idea to forward to Apple
accessibility to have an option in Voiceover to mark the insertion
points place in a word with a beep when spelling the word or somesuch?
/Krister
On, at [GMT] (which was 01:26 where I live) you
wrote::
F> Hello all, and Chris, how are you doing?
F> I hope all is well.
F> Okay Chris, let's see if this will help you out.
F> firstly, I can vouch for not having an issue with ever editing
F> documents, or edit boxes. I only switched to a mac in August,
and I
F> never had any issues in dealing with cursors itself.
F> I will try and explain this as best I can.
F> From here on out, I would like you to open a text edit document,
and
F> do the following.
F> Type out, Hello how are you doing?
F> Okay, now I would like you to do the following...
F> After you type out that particular sentence, please hold command,
and
F> hit left arrow to wrap back to the beginning of your sentence.
Now,
F> release, and follow my explanation.
F> Now, your cursor is sitting directly at the beginning of your
F> sentence. So, you cursor will be sitting in front of your letter
H in
F> the word Hello. So, from now on, when thinking of whre you move
your
F> cursor, you will be working either ahead, or behind the
document. For
F> easier purposes, you will be working to the right of your document,
F> should you move your cursor forward, or to the left, if you move
your
F> cursor to the left.
F> Now, let's do the following. We are only going to work with the
word
F> Hello, and nothing more. This will give you good practice, and you
F> will hopefully see that this is not a bug at all.
F> Try moving your cursor quickly to the right and left of the
characters
F> in Hello. If you move quickly to the right, past the letters H E
L L
F> O, you will hear each letter in individual succession, letting you
F> know that you passed that current letter, now, quickly hit your
left
F> arrow, and your cursor will now start letting you know what you are
F> passing over on the left. So, we first moved are cursor to the
right,
F> in which it announced H E L L O, now as soon as we move to the
left,
F> you will hear O L L E H, indicating, you are passing over these
F> particular letters.
F> This is what you will have to get used to while editing on the mac.
F> So, now let's practice editing work. Let's try changing the word
F> Hello into a name.
F> Let's use, Helen for our example. When you get done with this
F> sentence, it will read, Helen how are you doing? The former
sentence
F> was, Hello how are you doing?
F> So, remember, we are at the most left of the document, indicating
that
F> your cursor is now to the left of the letter H.
F> Now, let's get down to editing the word Hello. Firstly, let's
F> describe what happends as you actually move the cursor. Press your
F> right arrow once and you will hear H again, if you press it left
once
F> more, you will hear H again. The reason for this is because, you
are
F> telling the cursor, to be positioned to the left or right of a
F> character respectively.
F> This is so that, you know where you are heading into your current
F> document, and where the cursor will be traveling too. Should you
F> press right, the cursor will always be right after the current
F> character being heard, should you press left, the cursor will be
F> positioned to the left of the character being spoken. So, when you
F> heard H when you pressed your right arrow, your cursor was put in
F> front of the letter H, and VO said H, thus, when putting your
cursor
F> left, by itting the left arrow, you heard H again, siply because
your
F> cursor was being put before H, and you are still on the letter H.
F> Furthermore, if you just continued tapping right arrow, you would
have
F> heard the individual letters being spoken, while keeping in mind
that
F> every time you move right, the cursor is being put after the
character
F> being spoken, and works the same if you press the left arrow.
So, if
F> you pause for any instance, at any particular letter, and press
left
F> once, and or right once, you will still hear the same letter being
F> spoken to you. This is the same as I have spoken above.
F> So, now let's edit Hello to Helen. Press left arrow, to make
sure you
F> are at the beginning of the word Hello, or until you hear H. Now,
F> immediately press right arrow, until you hear O. Delete until you
F> hear O, L, and simply replace with E, N. There, we did it.
F> So, if your doing any editing work at all, remember, that you are
F> pressing the right arrow to be placed ahead of a character, where
as
F> left places you behind thecharacter.
F> I hope this helps.
F> Remember, this is not a user bug at all, and the way this was
designed
F> truely works the way it should be working.
F> On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:16 PM, Scott Howell wrote:
David, your correct, but what we need to explain is that in fact
this is because VO is different than windows-based screen readers. I
agree this is a bit tricky to get used to initially, but you will
get the hang of it. I don't know how to explain this so it makes
sense, but if you come up to a word, you hear the first letter, if
you back up with the left arrow, you will be just to the right of
the character. You will hear it seemingly speak double characters,
but it's how the cursor moves and not a VO bug. Someone with much
greater literary skills can probably make this easier to understand,
but trust me, it's something you get used to and it'll make sense.
On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:19 PM, David Poehlman wrote:
this is a user issue. It is not a bug. My suggestion is practice.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Gilland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:09 PM
Subject: Fw: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes.
I sent this to Apple Accessibility.
Do any of yall have any thoughts?
Chris.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Gilland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:04 PM
Subject: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes.
I am a voiceover user using Leopard 10.5.5.
I have noticed this issue as far back as the first release of
Tiger.
Basically, it's gonna be hard for me to type out what is
happening, being
this is more an auditory based thing, so try to stick with me on
this. I
really hope I don't confuse you all.
OK, I have a document up, o... let's just say, in, o? I dunno.
Text Edit,
we'll just say for sakes being.
OK, I have typed the following line of text in a new, blank text
document.
Please pay extremely close attention to how I've typed this both
gramatically, and also spelling:
The colors of tHe flag r red. white. and blUe?
Boy, this sentence is r'r'r'really! messed up!
Let's edit it.
OK, I go to the beginning of that line with command+left arrow.
I hear the word, The.
OK, so now I move word by word, with option right arrow.
The
colors
of
tHe
Whoops? We gotta booboo here. OK, so, I hit right arrow.
I hear space. UM? OK?
I hit left arrow. I hear again: Space. What in the heck?
I hit left arrow again. I hear E. aa, K. now we're getting
there. I
left arrow again. I hear cap H. There we go. I need to delete
this and
put a lower case h, instead of capital. So I hit the delete key,
then
type lower case h.
Now, if I read the current line with vo+L, I hear:
hhe colors of tHe flag r red. white. and blUe?
What? in the world? Why did it do? that!
I called a friend for help, and what he told me is the following.
I've
pasted his response below:
Wo wo wol Chris! Hold on here. Wol! Ur'r'r'rk?
Um? You're kind a failing to see something here: You're thinking
Windows
again. Stop doing that. Voiceover, thank God, doesn't work like
JAWS.
You can't edit that way. The thing is, Chris, as you left and
right
arrow, you know how in Windows, your insertion point is gonna be
right on
the actual character that it speaks? Well, un? fortunately, in
Voiceover,
it's not quite that simple. In VO, it is actually reading to you
the
character that your insertion point passes over, rather than the
way
Windows does it, with jfw, by reading the character you're sitting
on.
This is why when you hit the left arrow then delete, it did what
it did.
Let's say, Chris, that you type the word Hello, but instead of h,
e, l, l,
o, you did: h, e, k, k, o. Hekko? What the hell kind a word is
that!
So, you wanna get rid of those two k's, and replace them with
l's. Right?
OK, What I'd! do, Chris, is I would option right arrow, until I
hear
Hekko. Now remember, Chris, you're not on the word Hekko. Because
you
were working to the right in the document, where are you really?
cor,
rect! You're to the right! of the word hekko. That is definitely
not
where we wanna be, is it? So hit option left arrow one time.
You'll hear
again: Hekko. Can you explain to me Chris, why that is? The
reason's,
because now, you moved to the left! of the word Hekko. See...
you're not
on the word actually. That's where you're getting confused. On
the Mac,
unlike in Windows, there is! no such thing, as being quote,
unquote, on! a
character/word. You have to be on either trailing side of it, and
depending on whether you've done left arrow, or right arrow, will
determine which side you're on. OK, so now. We're to the left of
the
word Hekko. hit you're right arrow. You'll hear cap H. however,
watch
this. read your current character with vo+C. Did you see what it
did? It
said E. It didn't say H did it. ok, now hit left arrow. What
did you
hear? You heard E again didn't you. Now, hit vo C. Notice it
said H?
See? it's telling you what your cursor passed over! not! what
it's
actually on. so hit right arrow once. You heard E. Actually
though, it
passed the letter e, and since you're working to the right, it now
is
sitting on the right side of the letter E. So I betcha, if you
now hit vo
C, it'll say K. See that? You're now actually sitting on the
first
letter K in Hekko. So, hit your delete key twice. now, type ll.
Now read the current line with vo+L.
Hello
See? Mission accomplished!
End of response from my friend.
God! blessid! That confused me. I don't totally get what he's
saying
about it passing over things etc. That's driving me to drinking,
as I
can't hardly edit a document this way.
Is there any way to think about this differently, or at least,
maybe a way
in a future update, maybe under navigation in the vo utility, yall
could
make a checkbox, to make it behave more like Windows and speak
what it's
actually under instead of what it passes? God. I'm sure I'm not
the
first newly migrating user from Windows to a Mac, who's ran into
this. I
dono if it's a bug, that yall didn't really fix, as most people
don't
really seem to care, they just deal with it, or if you all
purposefully
made it this way, but no offense. In all do respect though guys,
this! is
outstandingly disgusting!
Ewww! Yoyk! You can imagine for people who have to work in other
languages that don't use the standard lattin based alphebet, you
can
imagine for someone like that, how Godly hard this would be to
edit.
Say in Arabic, you're wanting to type Allah.
Yes, you could do: A, l, l, A, h. but what if you're really
typing
arabic.
Alif, lam, lam, heh.
now that is Not! gonna read with vo if you use the actual Arabic
letters,
so, editting that? being you don't know what you're literally, on,
as it's
passing things, not reporting what you're sitting on? Now you got
yourself a double! challenge. Trying first to figure out what
characters
you got, and B, figuring out where your cursor really truely is
sitting,
not what it's passed over.
just, ya know:
Be aware of this. It is something that I really think you all may
wanna
consider looking into as it's so confusing to me, it's almost
making me
scared of Leopard, and really wanna use it less and less. It just
cfeels
so awquard! Any suggestions?
Chris.
Scott Howell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- --
/Krister
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Get pgp keys here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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