And the term architect or lead is also abused heavily in the
industry. I can't tell you the number of "lead developers" or
architects I have met who couldn't design an app or code for sh!t!
Often times people wind up with these titles because they have N
years experience... but it doesn't mean they actually know how to do
anything worth a damn.
-dhs
Dean H. Saxe, CISSP, CEH
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak
minds."
--Einstein
On Dec 27, 2006, at 11:48 AM, Douglas Knudsen wrote:
adding to the cornucopia here, I'll add that the idea of a Lead or
Architect may vary greatly from company to company or within a
large organization. An Architect on team A using CF Technology
might have no knowledge of Java at all that a Architect on team B
does and conversely. Further more, their respective
responsibilities maybe quite different, one may even code whilst
the other lives in UML world.
DK
On 12/27/06, Teddy Payne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am a little late on this thread and Charlie has provided a
plethora of knowledge.
To be a lead at anything, it first starts out with your personal
character. Can you lead well? Do people look to you? Are people
confident in your ability?
I studied computer science before and really all you need is to
learn the theory of architecture. Let me stress the word "theory"
here. In computer science, you learn to apply the same pricipals
over and over again to languages that only differed in syntax or
implementation.
Can you be a lead as a CF'er? Sure.
Does knowing OO help? You betcha.
Do I have to be uber Java guy to be an architect? Debateable.
If you want to be an integration specialist, I would recommend
learning Java with CF. If you want to be a future lead, you will
have to learn to detach from code eventually. Higher and higher
levels of architects write less and less code.
I have enjoyed my code for the past 10 years, but eventually I will
have to take the blue pill and come back to earth.
Teddy
On 12/26/06, Charlie Arehart <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
Ajas, you're trying to draw me into answering your first 2
questions, which as you note I did not in my original reply. :-) I
don't want to try to get into that debate, to be honest. I don't
think there are clear answers. And I think we need to have much
more info about the place where you're asking if a CFML person
could be an architect. I think in some places, they could be, even
without OO experience. Certainly in others, they'd have to have it,
and in still others, even such experience might be ignored if they
also showed CF experience in the bulk of their resume. You can't
win all the battles out there.
I will say that it certainly wouldn't hurt for a CFML developer to
learn more about OO and Java. But there are many (MANY) who still
never have and who make a comfortable living. Could they do their
jobs better with greater understanding of software engineering
principles? Sure. Is it necessary, not in most cases.
The beauty of learning Java (over C#) is that you can so closely
integrate the two in CFML today. Again, this is something I've
written and spoken about a lot (as have others). I'll point you to
a May 2005 CFDJ article, "Getting Started Integrating CFML with
Java & .NET":
http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/read/86127.htm
There I make the case and point out other resources about CFML/Java
integration (and there are many, far more complete than mine). You
may note in the title that I also point out integration with .NET
(and by implication C#). That's easiest with BlueDragon.NET right
now but Scorpio (CF8) will also offer the ability to call .NET
objects. My point with all this addresses your last question to me
below, "Do you think switching technologies is a good idea?"). It
need not be an either/or proposition (CF vs Java/C#). You can "eat
your cake and have it too" (which is not only the original form of
the phrase, but also the more logical form).
<image002.jpg>
/Charlie
http://www.carehart.org/blog/
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajas
Mohammed
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:21 PM
To: discussion@acfug.org
Subject: Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF. Object oriented & its future.
General Questions.
Hi Charlie,
Thanks for the reply. It really helped a lot. In
your reply you mentioned,
As for learning more about OO development in Java, if you're new to
that, I recommend Jacquie Barker's "Beginning Java Objects". Most
Java books presume you already understand OO (in my opinion) and
hers was one of the first to walk you through it gently (and
without requiring too much understanding of Java, either). In that
regard, it can be useful even for CFML folks looking to expand
their understanding.
Do you think as a CF developer who plans to become Lead/Architect,
learning java or Java objects might help. What I am trying to ask
is, if a person spends lets say 5 years of his experience in CF,
is he good enough to be an architect or does he needs to have Java
experience also to add weight for him to be considered for
Architect./Lead position??
My main concern is that do I need to learn C#/Java. Lets say after
5 years of experience CF, I shouldnt feel that I should have tried
C#/Java instead of just sticking to CF. Best way to avoid this
would be to learn something now, instead of waiting for a switch
later and I know its gonna be too late if I do it after 4-5 years.
Any suggestions... Do you think switching technologies is a good
idea??
Anyone with answers to question 1 & 2 i.e.
1. My question is do you guys see potential in CF that a person can
after some years of experience treated as Lead or Architect.
2.Also do we have architects here in this group based of CF
experience only?
Ajas.
On 12/26/06, Charlie Arehart < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
Ajas, I'm sure others will have much more to say, but I want to
quickly resolve your fears and concerns b y pointing out that yes,
indeed, CFCs are the way in which CFML enables more object-like
development. No, I won't call it object-oriented as some will
contend with that specific term, but an affirmative answer for your
last questions is a sign of how far CFML has evolved since its
being labeled early on (and being still regarded by many) as "just
a tag-based scripting language".
To your question 3, yes, by using CFCs your CFML applications can
"have classes and stuff like that". CFCs can be thought of as
classes, with methods and properties, and even inheritance. Pretty
much whatever you learn in any resource on object-based development
will apply to CFML--but I will point out as well that there are
indeed many folks who use CFCs and never apply them in a real OO
way. Your example of using them for web services is one of them.
Another is their use as effectively buckets of what would be called
"static" methods--they don't try to persist (or rely on persistence
of) any sort of state data. There's nothing wrong with that, and
it's clearly "a" form of reuse, but it's not really on par with
what you'll read/learn about regarding true OO-style programming.
I'll let others point out what they think are good resources to
learn and apply CFCs in a more OO way. As for learning more about
OO development in Java, if you're new to that, I recommend Jacquie
Barker's "Beginning Java Objects". Most Java books presume you
already understand OO (in my opinion) and hers was one of the first
to walk you through it gently (and without requiring too much
understanding of Java, either). In that regard, it can be useful
even for CFML folks looking to expand their understanding.
The same dilemma will apply to some resources out there that
discuss using CFCs in a more OO-like way: they presume you already
understand the "why" and focus instead on the "how", or on
implementation using some specific style or pattern, again
presuming you understand patterns. For that, I'll recommend
Shalloway's "Design Patterns Explained".
All this is about the evolution of a CFML developer to greater
levels of software engineering appreciation. Going to your earlier
points, I don't think it's NECESSARY for a CFML developer to learn
them, but it will certainly help for some work and some projects,
and will over time improve all projects one works on. It's very
much a mind-shift. In fact, in 2001 I wrote about why I thought it
would be very challenging for some to make the transition. At the
time, I was writing on the transition to J2EE, but it's really as
much about the transition to OO. You may find it helpful: http://
jdj.sys-con.com/read/36679.htm
To your question 4, yes, CFCs can be represented as being in
packages. Indeed, there is an ACCESS attribute of CFFUNCTION (the
way to define methods in CFCs) which is corollary to the access
modifier in Java, and it supports public, private, and package, to
name a few.
To your question 5, there is indeed an API tool. In CFMX you can
browse a CFC (literally, just browse the CFC name as if it was a
URL) and CF will present an API interface showing the properties,
methods, and more. You do need to have the RDS (not Admin) password
to access that, and that's been a show-stopper for many. I wrote a
blog entry in 2003 showing how to disable or alter that, if
appropriate for your environment:
http://cfmxplus.blogspot.com/2003/02/how-to-stop-requiring-rds-
password-for.html
<image002.jpg>
/Charlie
http://www.carehart.org/blog/
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajas
Mohammed
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 8:28 AM
To: discussion@acfug.org
Subject: [ACFUG Discuss] CF. Object oriented & its future. General
Questions.
Hi,
I am a CF developer and I had discussion with one of my friends
and he said if you want to be architect or lead, you need to have
understanding of objects/classes like how they used in java. He
said you are going no where and need to switch the technology if
you want to earn good money. The reason I have asked this question
is because many non-CF developers or architects think that CF just
tag based and they dont give respect to CF.
1. My question is do you guys see potential in CF that a person can
after some years of experience treated as Lead or Architect.
2.Also do we have architects here in this group based of CF
experience only?
3. We do only web development and we havent used CFC's except for
one place where we use it as webservice. How would someone compare
CF OO programming with something like java maybe. Can we have CF
applications have classes and stuff like that. If yes then what
would be a good starting point to learn & implement in that style
( i.e. reusability).
4. Can we have packages in CF?
5. Is there a documentation tool in CF like JavaDoc tool in java
which creates documentation?
I am so confused right now. Your suggestions are needed.
Thanks in advance..
Ajas Mohammed.
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<cf_payne />
Adobe Certified ColdFusion MX 7 Developer
Atlanta CFUG (ACFUG): http://www.acfug.org
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this is my signature, like it?
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