I support the ban: what Serge wrote was abusive, personal, and hurtful, easily falling into the 'extreme' bin.
If it were a comment on a blog, it would get deleted. If it was on Metafilter, he would be banned. If it were real-life, it would start a fight. No: it isn't acceptable. Rarely are talk lists moderated. Frequently they should be. This is a toxic place. On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Randal Hale <rjh...@northrivergeographic.com > wrote: > and for my position over leaving - I do apologize. > > I came here seeking a community after an import gone wrong. There was a > lot of fault on both sides on how that discussion went down (myself and the > import group - there were also voices of encouragement that came from > import also). It was toxic overall. I was pointed to the diversity list - > so I've been lurking and watching. Hoping to see a community that I'm still > not entirely sure exists. That's a much longer discussion for another day. > > What got me here was the same unpleasantness we experienced over that > email. I err on the side of being extreme in cases like that. It's the > second time Alyssa has come under fire (IMO) - and the second time it was > uncalled for. After speaking with her this is more like the 3rd incident. I > don't have enough fingers for what my friend (female) experienced from some > of the OSM'ers. > > As Serge once put it (paraphrased in an off topic email) "I've got > authority issues". True. Like I said - the same attitude that drove me here > appears again. I personally hate COCs. Much in the same way I hate Home > owner associations. But - it's needed at this point. I will gladly accept > moderated/banned/etc if it encourages community decency. There's been a > profound lack of it for various reasons. I'm personally tired of the > indecency. I teach classes in OSM mostly for fun - my first 15 to 20 > minutes if covering toxicity in the community. I would love to not do that > - this is my first step in throwing that section out. That's 20 more > minutes for after class drinks. > > I do Mapping for pay and for fun. I like OSM. I am torn every time I > encourage someone to get involved - for fear of "recent unpleasantness". So > I drew a line and line drawing is most unhelpful. > > I broke a personal rule - threatening to leave. For that I'm sorry. Better > to leave than announce it. > > Darrel - thanks for what you are doing. It is appreciated and not > thankless in the least. > > Alan - thank you for the level head. > > Randy. > > > > > On 12/03/2014 07:58 AM, Alan McConchie wrote: > >> So I have a lot of comments here. Bear with me. >> >> First I want to say that I support Darrell's decision. I'm sure it was a >> difficult decision to make. Given the complexity of the context, I think it >> was as firm as necessary but also appropriately flexible considering that >> this is the first time that moderator power has been exercised on this >> list, and given that the CoC is not officially in force yet. >> >> Thanks, Paul, for pointing out that this list has not formally adopted >> the CoC. Paul writes, "[a] moderator could use such a code of conduct as a >> guide to coming to a decision, but the decision must be justified in of >> itself." Firstly, I think Darrell's decision shows that he _was_ trying to >> follow the spirit of the CoC, while making some necessary adjustments. For >> example, the CoC says nothing about 60 day bans, only that violations are >> forgiven after 6 months. I think the 60 day temporary ban that Darrell >> decided on is a smart compromise to make the list feel safe in the short >> term and make everyone take a deep breath, but without being as severe as a >> complete ban. I think Darrell was very careful to come up with a solution >> that wouldn't be perceived as dictatorial. >> >> Secondly, I think the decision was justified in and of itself. Clearly >> the messages in this thread show that there is disagreement among the list >> members as do whether the decision was appropriate or if it was >> "overstepping bounds". Fundamentally all these decisions will be somewhat >> subjective on the part of the moderator. Note that even in the draft CoC >> there is a clause that extreme violations (which includes "abusive" >> statements) are not subject to the three-strikes rule. Obviously, this will >> be a subjective decision that the moderator(s) will have to make. There >> will always be times where the moderators will have to make decisions that >> some of the list membership will disagree with. But personally, and for >> this list especially, I would rather see the moderator error on the side of >> enforcing the CoC and trying to keep this list as a safe space, rather than >> leaning on the side of laissez faire free-speech. We have plenty of that on >> the other OSM lists, and they all have a well-earned reputation as toxic >> spaces. >> >> It's also significant that Darrell outlined an in-list appeal process, >> and I'd also like to thank Paul for pointing out that Serge can also appeal >> to the Communications Working Group. I think both of these channels for >> appeal should be kept open. Maybe it's good that we will have our own >> appeals process in addition to the CWG, because we may want to develop >> different standards on this list compared to other lists. We should discuss >> this further. >> >> I'd also like to address Paul's observation about Alyssa's "repeated >> triggering". Personally, I think her statement was made in good faith and I >> don't think it would warrant anything beyond a warning (if that), but I >> realize others may see things differently. I'm not opposed to discussing >> Alyssa's statements further, but I think Serge needs to be responsible for >> his own actions regardless of what we think about what Alyssa said. If we >> want to propose that the moderator gives Alyssa a warning or other >> sanction, then we should take that up in a separate thread. >> >> I appreciate Frederik's concerns about the appearance of a "secret >> court", and I agree that evidence should be presented publicly as much as >> possible, but I think there are also lots of situations where secrecy and >> privacy is at least as important, especially to protect accusers from >> retaliation. This mailing list is not a court of law, and we don't >> necessarily have to follow those rules. It's difficult to balance public >> and private evidence, and again it's a situation where we simply have to >> have moderators that the list trusts to make wise decisions. If we can't >> trust our moderators we need a way to replace them with ones that most of >> us do trust. Part of the role of the moderator is and should be to make >> delicate decisions with information that may not be fully public. >> >> We also have to trust our moderators to be balanced when listening to >> these private messages. Darrell did say "I would welcome off-list >> comments," before making his decision. I interpret that as an impartial >> request, not a solicitation of nothing but more accusations. Supporters of >> Serge had as much of a chance to weigh in as anyone else. >> >> Also, we've now had two people saying they would leave the list if X >> thing doesn't happen. A few days ago Randal said he'd leave the list if >> Serge wasn't banned. Now Jo says she'll leave the list if the ban isn't >> lifted. I'd argue that neither of these positions are very helpful. If >> you're going to leave the list, do it for yourself for the preservation of >> your own sanity (I'd fully understand that!). But I don't think it's very >> effective as an ultimatum. >> >> Jo, I'm sorry to see you go, if you are truly intent on leaving. I'd much >> rather have you stay and help us work through all of this together. >> >> Finally, shouldn't we just adopt the CoC? Now? Isn't it good enough? >> >> Alan >> _______________________________________________ >> diversity-talk mailing list >> diversity-talk@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/diversity-talk >> > > -- > ----------------- > Randal Hale > North River Geographic Systems, Inc > http://www.northrivergeographic.com > 423.653.3611 rjh...@northrivergeographic.com > twitter:rjhale http://about.me/rjhale > http://www.northrivergeographic.com/spatial-connect > > > > _______________________________________________ > diversity-talk mailing list > diversity-talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/diversity-talk >
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