On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 3:34 PM Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> wrote: > > I suppose my point is -- is there a problem that we're addressing and what > is that problem, exactly? > > I certainly don't want to find myself promoting a survey at the end of > which all the Apache communities are evaluated or assessed or analyzed > based on the percentages of the multiple identities that they reflect. > I.e., one community will be more diverse than another and hence the latter > will be encouraged to learn from the former. Is diversity, in itself, > something to strive for? Maybe yes, but I'm not 100% sure. Is it wrong if > all committers to a particular Apache project are women? Or if they're all > under 30? Or over 50?
Possibly. Let me give an analogy. Would it be wrong if every person on a given project were employed by IBM? The answer is that it is not necessarily wrong, but it would indicate a potential problem. And if so, a very serious one at that. That problem would be a pattern of exclusion. If people from other companies were not welcome, then that would be a BIG problem, as in such a project would not be welcome here at the ASF. I give the example of IBM for two reasons. First I work for IBM and I don't want to unintentionally disparage a potential competitor. And for the fact that years ago IBM contributed Derby to the ASF via the incubator and that that project graduated with a predominance of IBM committers at the time. And they did so by successfully convincing others in the incubator that they were open to all contributors. Derby is still an active subproject of the DB project here at the ASF. Returning back to your question, I am also the chair of a PMC (whimsy) which has 10 members. I have not personally met all of them, but I believe them all to be white males. We have two people who have expressed an interest in participating, both also are presumed to be white males. I don't perceive there to be a pattern of exclusion, but I would welcome an unbiased evaluation of the situation. I'm not suggesting that it be a top priority for this group to do so, but something that should be done in due time. Perhaps even via a self-assessment using materials produced by this group. - Sam Ruby > Gj > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:27 PM Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > I'm not assuming at all that a hijab signifies sexism. Though I'm also not > > assuming that if every single woman in the world were to deny that a hijab > > does not signify sexism that therefore a hijab does not signify sexism. (I > > have noted though that not one single man wears a hijab, but let's leave > > the hijab discussion, that's not the point but an illustration.) > > > > The problems "there" are actually "here". I.e., when we're talking > > diversity, we're I think inevitably going to be talking creating safe > > spaces, which means, as well, trigger warnings and microaggressions. All of > > which are important and should be addressed. > > > > I think my point is that we don't really have a global language of > > inclusivity -- and sure everyone should feel welcome at conferences and so > > on. But if we're going to be trying to figure out what blockages there are > > in the participation of contributors based on the subcategories of > > identification to which they subscribe voluntarily or by birth -- where > > does it end? I'm uncomfortable with the survey, to be honest. Though of > > course it's important to do our best to ensure that everyone feels > > comfortable to contribute regardless of the various identities they hold. > > > > Gj > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:18 PM Ross Gardler > > <ross.gard...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote: > > > >> It is very complicated. For example, your assumption that the Hijab > >> signifies sexism is contested by every single woman I have known who wears > >> one (which admittedly is a low number and not at all representative of the > >> bigger picture). > >> > >> That said, there are problems everywhere. We can't solve the problems > >> there, it's not our place to. But we can solve our problems here in the > >> ASF. > >> > >> For example, if a woman is attending an ASF event in a Hijab and we > >> assume she is wearing it because of inequality in her culture then we are > >> not creating a welcoming environment. We are creating barriers between her > >> and us because of assumptions based on what our own culture teaches us. In > >> my (admittedly limited) experience such a woman is likely wearing the Hajib > >> because she chooses to do so and we should respect her right to make that > >> choice. > >> > >> If it's not a choice for her then it's not something that we can directly > >> influence but we can still make her welcome within our community. > >> > >> Ross > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> > >> Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 11:27 AM > >> To: diversity@apache.org > >> Subject: Diversity in a diverse world > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Just a trigger warning here -- I was in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia last week, > >> giving a course in which Apache NetBeans was used. There were 8 people on > >> the course, three of which were women completely covered in black hijabs > >> with only their eyes showing. I do think safe spaces, microaggressions, > >> and > >> trigger warnings are very important -- but in an ecosystem where there are > >> literally women in the back of the classroom with only their eyes showing, > >> it seems complicated to address this diversity topic at all, unless we're > >> not concerned about the diversity issues connected to superiority, > >> colonialism, and ethnocentrism, etc. > >> > >> And... a year ago those three women would not have been in a computer > >> class > >> at all, so the fact that they were even in the room was a sign of massive > >> progress. > >> > >> Just want to raise this because what some might see as diversity could be > >> pretty problematic in a global context -- unless we're comfortable, or at > >> least very prepared, to deal with the fall out. > >> > >> Gj > >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
