Adding more questions/answers inline
On 2019/05/09 19:34:24, Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> wrote: > I suppose my point is -- is there a problem that we're addressing and what > is that problem, exactly? >From personal experience, I believe there is a problem. We need to do some >research to articulate it and some team work to identify how we want to >approach it. As Ross said - we can only influence what happens within the ASF >at the moment. If we're lucky and work consistently, we could even influence >an industry. > > I certainly don't want to find myself promoting a survey at the end of > which all the Apache communities are evaluated or assessed or analyzed > based on the percentages of the multiple identities that they reflect. > I.e., one community will be more diverse than another and hence the latter > will be encouraged to learn from the former. Is diversity, in itself, > something to strive for? Maybe yes, but I'm not 100% sure. Is it wrong if > all committers to a particular Apache project are women? Or if they're all > under 30? Or over 50? 100% agree with you, a survey that focus on demographics is only providing a small section of a larger map. In fact - just today, I chatted with the CHAOSS folks, and I learn that they look at diversity in multiple dimensions [1], demographics is just one of them. This is exactly the approach I want us to have. We need to combine results from this survey with findings from a more comprehensive research that also tell us how folks find the experience of getting started in Apache projects. There are different tools for each area we should evaluate. Why do a survey then? -- Demographics play a part of how communities and groups function, and I still believe is important we look at them. The survey is optional, and you could help us shape it to what you believe is appropriate. [1] https://github.com/chaoss/wg-diversity-inclusion/tree/master/demographic-data > Gj > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:27 PM Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > I'm not assuming at all that a hijab signifies sexism. Though I'm also not > > assuming that if every single woman in the world were to deny that a hijab > > does not signify sexism that therefore a hijab does not signify sexism. (I > > have noted though that not one single man wears a hijab, but let's leave > > the hijab discussion, that's not the point but an illustration.) > > > > The problems "there" are actually "here". I.e., when we're talking > > diversity, we're I think inevitably going to be talking creating safe > > spaces, which means, as well, trigger warnings and microaggressions. All of > > which are important and should be addressed. > > > > I think my point is that we don't really have a global language of > > inclusivity -- and sure everyone should feel welcome at conferences and so > > on. But if we're going to be trying to figure out what blockages there are > > in the participation of contributors based on the subcategories of > > identification to which they subscribe voluntarily or by birth -- where > > does it end? I'm uncomfortable with the survey, to be honest. Though of > > course it's important to do our best to ensure that everyone feels > > comfortable to contribute regardless of the various identities they hold. > > > > Gj > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:18 PM Ross Gardler > > <ross.gard...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote: > > > >> It is very complicated. For example, your assumption that the Hijab > >> signifies sexism is contested by every single woman I have known who wears > >> one (which admittedly is a low number and not at all representative of the > >> bigger picture). > >> > >> That said, there are problems everywhere. We can't solve the problems > >> there, it's not our place to. But we can solve our problems here in the > >> ASF. > >> > >> For example, if a woman is attending an ASF event in a Hijab and we > >> assume she is wearing it because of inequality in her culture then we are > >> not creating a welcoming environment. We are creating barriers between her > >> and us because of assumptions based on what our own culture teaches us. In > >> my (admittedly limited) experience such a woman is likely wearing the Hajib > >> because she chooses to do so and we should respect her right to make that > >> choice. > >> > >> If it's not a choice for her then it's not something that we can directly > >> influence but we can still make her welcome within our community. > >> > >> Ross > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> > >> Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 11:27 AM > >> To: diversity@apache.org > >> Subject: Diversity in a diverse world > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> Just a trigger warning here -- I was in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia last week, > >> giving a course in which Apache NetBeans was used. There were 8 people on > >> the course, three of which were women completely covered in black hijabs > >> with only their eyes showing. I do think safe spaces, microaggressions, > >> and > >> trigger warnings are very important -- but in an ecosystem where there are > >> literally women in the back of the classroom with only their eyes showing, > >> it seems complicated to address this diversity topic at all, unless we're > >> not concerned about the diversity issues connected to superiority, > >> colonialism, and ethnocentrism, etc. > >> > >> And... a year ago those three women would not have been in a computer > >> class > >> at all, so the fact that they were even in the room was a sign of massive > >> progress. > >> > >> Just want to raise this because what some might see as diversity could be > >> pretty problematic in a global context -- unless we're comfortable, or at > >> least very prepared, to deal with the fall out. > >> > >> Gj > >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
