And I am aware that the longer this conversation continues with just white men participating, the greater the chance that what is going on here is mansplaining, etc etc etc.
I am a lot more (or less) than simply a white male — and while I think we need to figure out if people are not participating as they would otherwise di based on one or more or combinations of their personality, I think we should simply treat people as people, unless there is actual evidence that someone’s voice is actually being ignored or suppressed for whatever reason. Gh On Thu, 9 May 2019 at 22:16, Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> wrote: > Yes, and I agree completely. But maybe to argue from the end point -- if > the result of the survey would be "in project X, more of Y would have > participated, if not for Z", then that is valuable. But, taking your PMC as > an example, with 12 apparently white males, how are you going to establish > that it is the fact that someone is either or both not white or male that > they are not interested in participating in the PMC, i.,e, you can't ask > those 12 apparently white males. Are you going to create a token position > and then encourage etc etc etc. > > If there would be a way in which we could simply say to all our > communities: "Hey, is there any reason that we need to know about that you > feel uncomfortable participating more or differently than you are?" -- then > that would make sense to me. But, please, let's not do a census whereby > everyone needs to identify their bifurcated identities and then, > inevitably, communities get judged (or however you want to call it) for the > extent of their bifurcation. > > Gj > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 10:08 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote: > >> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 3:34 PM Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> >> wrote: >> > >> > I suppose my point is -- is there a problem that we're addressing and >> what >> > is that problem, exactly? >> > >> > I certainly don't want to find myself promoting a survey at the end of >> > which all the Apache communities are evaluated or assessed or analyzed >> > based on the percentages of the multiple identities that they reflect. >> > I.e., one community will be more diverse than another and hence the >> latter >> > will be encouraged to learn from the former. Is diversity, in itself, >> > something to strive for? Maybe yes, but I'm not 100% sure. Is it wrong >> if >> > all committers to a particular Apache project are women? Or if they're >> all >> > under 30? Or over 50? >> >> Possibly. >> >> Let me give an analogy. Would it be wrong if every person on a given >> project were employed by IBM? >> >> The answer is that it is not necessarily wrong, but it would indicate >> a potential problem. And if so, a very serious one at that. That >> problem would be a pattern of exclusion. If people from other >> companies were not welcome, then that would be a BIG problem, as in >> such a project would not be welcome here at the ASF. >> >> I give the example of IBM for two reasons. First I work for IBM and I >> don't want to unintentionally disparage a potential competitor. And >> for the fact that years ago IBM contributed Derby to the ASF via the >> incubator and that that project graduated with a predominance of IBM >> committers at the time. And they did so by successfully convincing >> others in the incubator that they were open to all contributors. >> Derby is still an active subproject of the DB project here at the ASF. >> >> Returning back to your question, I am also the chair of a PMC (whimsy) >> which has 10 members. I have not personally met all of them, but I >> believe them all to be white males. We have two people who have >> expressed an interest in participating, both also are presumed to be >> white males. I don't perceive there to be a pattern of exclusion, but >> I would welcome an unbiased evaluation of the situation. I'm not >> suggesting that it be a top priority for this group to do so, but >> something that should be done in due time. Perhaps even via a >> self-assessment using materials produced by this group. >> >> - Sam Ruby >> >> > Gj >> > >> > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:27 PM Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> >> > wrote: >> > >> > > I'm not assuming at all that a hijab signifies sexism. Though I'm >> also not >> > > assuming that if every single woman in the world were to deny that a >> hijab >> > > does not signify sexism that therefore a hijab does not signify >> sexism. (I >> > > have noted though that not one single man wears a hijab, but let's >> leave >> > > the hijab discussion, that's not the point but an illustration.) >> > > >> > > The problems "there" are actually "here". I.e., when we're talking >> > > diversity, we're I think inevitably going to be talking creating safe >> > > spaces, which means, as well, trigger warnings and microaggressions. >> All of >> > > which are important and should be addressed. >> > > >> > > I think my point is that we don't really have a global language of >> > > inclusivity -- and sure everyone should feel welcome at conferences >> and so >> > > on. But if we're going to be trying to figure out what blockages >> there are >> > > in the participation of contributors based on the subcategories of >> > > identification to which they subscribe voluntarily or by birth -- >> where >> > > does it end? I'm uncomfortable with the survey, to be honest. Though >> of >> > > course it's important to do our best to ensure that everyone feels >> > > comfortable to contribute regardless of the various identities they >> hold. >> > > >> > > Gj >> > > >> > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:18 PM Ross Gardler >> > > <ross.gard...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote: >> > > >> > >> It is very complicated. For example, your assumption that the Hijab >> > >> signifies sexism is contested by every single woman I have known who >> wears >> > >> one (which admittedly is a low number and not at all representative >> of the >> > >> bigger picture). >> > >> >> > >> That said, there are problems everywhere. We can't solve the problems >> > >> there, it's not our place to. But we can solve our problems here in >> the ASF. >> > >> >> > >> For example, if a woman is attending an ASF event in a Hijab and we >> > >> assume she is wearing it because of inequality in her culture then >> we are >> > >> not creating a welcoming environment. We are creating barriers >> between her >> > >> and us because of assumptions based on what our own culture teaches >> us. In >> > >> my (admittedly limited) experience such a woman is likely wearing >> the Hajib >> > >> because she chooses to do so and we should respect her right to make >> that >> > >> choice. >> > >> >> > >> If it's not a choice for her then it's not something that we can >> directly >> > >> influence but we can still make her welcome within our community. >> > >> >> > >> Ross >> > >> >> > >> ________________________________ >> > >> From: Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> >> > >> Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 11:27 AM >> > >> To: diversity@apache.org >> > >> Subject: Diversity in a diverse world >> > >> >> > >> Hi all, >> > >> >> > >> Just a trigger warning here -- I was in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia last >> week, >> > >> giving a course in which Apache NetBeans was used. There were 8 >> people on >> > >> the course, three of which were women completely covered in black >> hijabs >> > >> with only their eyes showing. I do think safe spaces, >> microaggressions, >> > >> and >> > >> trigger warnings are very important -- but in an ecosystem where >> there are >> > >> literally women in the back of the classroom with only their eyes >> showing, >> > >> it seems complicated to address this diversity topic at all, unless >> we're >> > >> not concerned about the diversity issues connected to superiority, >> > >> colonialism, and ethnocentrism, etc. >> > >> >> > >> And... a year ago those three women would not have been in a computer >> > >> class >> > >> at all, so the fact that they were even in the room was a sign of >> massive >> > >> progress. >> > >> >> > >> Just want to raise this because what some might see as diversity >> could be >> > >> pretty problematic in a global context -- unless we're comfortable, >> or at >> > >> least very prepared, to deal with the fall out. >> > >> >> > >> Gj >> > >> >> > > >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org >> >>
