Alisha, One thing that has not been mentioned re: a graduate student's worth to a university relates to their FTE (full-time equivalent) hours. At our university, each credit hour for a grad student is weighted more heavily than an undergraduate credit hour. Working from memory (I'm lazy today!), I believe each master's FTE is 4 times that of an undergrad, and each doctoral FTE is 12 times the undergraduate level. If funding formulations are based on FTEs, as is true at many state institutions, then grad student hours are worth a lot to the university.
I'd also strongly support bringing up the topic of quietness for writing, since this is a major component of the graduate experience. It's often difficult enough to work and write in an office with just 2 people, as I know from experience. I eventually had to finish my dissertation from home, because my office mate and I were both trying to write at the same time; if either one was not interested in writing on a given day, it was too easy to distract the other, and we'd never get anything done! I can't even begin to imagine the difficulty of trying to write a thesis or dissertation with 30 other folks in the office (plus students coming in, grad advisors, post-docs, significant others, etc etc...) Chris ******************************************** Chris Brown Associate Professor Dept. of Biology, Box 5063 Tennessee Tech University Cookeville, TN 38505 email: cabr...@tntech.edu website: iweb.tntech.edu/cabrown -----Original Message----- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.edu] On Behalf Of James Crants Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 11:51 AM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Grad students: what are they worth, and does their work space effect their productivity? Input gratefully accepted I went to Michigan, and I would say the Ecology and Evolutionary Biology department there was pretty good to its grad students. If anything, they've been getting better since I started there nine years ago. I'm certainly glad they didn't treat us the way your department is planning to treat you. One of the hidden values of grad students to a university is the way they make it feasible to carry out major research projects. A university gets a percentage of each grant its faculty members manage to land (there may be exceptions), and a professor can get a bigger grant, and is more likely to get a grant in the first place, if there are grad students to help with the work. Also, since these big projects increase the prestige of the institution and add permanent resources, such as high-value lab equipment, they generate more income than is obvious on paper. It's easier for professors at high-prestige universities to land more grant money, and high-achieving undergrads with the potential to become rich, big-donating alumni are drawn to high-prestige universities. I don't know how strong this argument is for ecology, which doesn't bring in as much grant money or generate as many millionaire alumns as some other disciplines, but I think even ecology grad students must be a net positive for the wealth and prestige of their institutions. Abstract arguments aside, what you describe sounds like the worst work environment I've heard of any department providing its grad students (fieldwork doesn't count). If my department had gone through with a plan like that, I'd have considered taking my Master's and going elsewhere for my doctorate. Good luck. Jim On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Kevin Murray <klmurra...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello all, > > This is a very important topic. I dealt with similar negative > attitudes towards grad students during my dissertation work. I know as > scientists we like to point to empirical evidence to support a point, > but I can't help you there. I don't know of any papers on the matter. > However, if you want to quickly estimate your value to the university, > just envision a simple scenario. Imagine if every graduate student > immediately stopped doing any work whatsoever to support the > university. Imagine the university's response. Their anger (and fear) > will be directly proportional to your value. If you and your graduate > students demand respect as a group then your value will be recognized > by the university, one way or another. Good luck, > > Kevin > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Julie Byrd Hebert <byr...@umd.edu> wrote: > > > Alisha > > > > I'm glad to see you bringing this topic up. I've been wondering what > > the climate for graduate students is like at different institutions. > > I think > it > > is important to know because, in my experience, your description of > > the value of graduate students (at least to the University > > Administrators) is much like my own. I have to wonder if this is > > part of the reason for the "decline of science and innovation" at > > least in the United States. Why remain in a field where you don't > > feel valued? If the graduate students > are > > the future of science and technology one would think that there > > would be value in spending time, money, and effort in training these > > students and giving them a good work environment. I would like to > > think we are in the minority, but I have to wonder... > > > > Julie > > > > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Alisha Dahlstrom < > > alisha.dahlst...@gmail.com<mailto:alisha.dahlst...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I am currently a phd student in my second year. Currently, within > > > my department, grad students share a small building with several > > > rooms, > 5-7 > > in > > > a room. There is a proposal to uproot all the students (and > > > combine > them > > > with grad students in a similar department) to a renovated > > > basement > that > > is > > > currently not being used because it is moldy, has poor ventilation > > > and > no > > > natural lighting. Apart from a few short partitions, this would be > > > a > > large > > > shared space that "packed as many students in as possible" (about > > > 40; > you > > > can imagine the potential noise and disruptions). As the grad > > > student > > rep, > > > when I explained this to the proponent of this new plan and asked > > > for > his > > > justification, it was that "grad students aren't worth much to a > > university > > > (monetarily speaking, at least, undergrads earn a school more) and > > > it > > would > > > be nice for visitors to see all the students in one space." > > > > > > As this plan seems to be moving forward rapidly, I would really > > > like to pull together some documentation that supports my belief > > > that 1) grad > students > > > will have a higher completion rate and better output in a better > > > (e.g., quieter and well-lit) work environment and 2) grad students > > > are > actually > > > valuable to a university. In my cursory, search, I haven't had > > > much > luck > > - > > > does anyone have any suggestions or input? Feel free to email me > > directly. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Alisha > > > > > >
