On 9/16/06, Arthur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am trying to say that some integration of algorithmics into required > math education is eminently sensible.
As stated, that's too watered down to make a difference I should think. Of course math education centers around algorithmics to some degree, but does that entail any use of a programming language that executes electronically? The word Algorithm comes from an old Iraqi word, the name of this guy from Baghdad. Europe was still in a dark age, with the Church monopolizing computation, when knowledge of simple algorithms that'd let you run a business starting percolating in from the Islamic world. A Renaissance ensued, reaching a high point in Italy at the universities in Bologna, where faculty served at the whim of the students (i.e. student unions had hire and fire capability). To this day, we teach algorithms in math class. But have we said anything about computers yet? No. So your position, as stated above, is not honed enough to advertise anything beyond the status quo. I think John Zelle asked a good question: why should CS be its "own door" into mathemtics, i.e. why pander to other disciplines and make them king? I like his attitude. > Among other things is a statement > that computer programming - in some sense of the word - *is* for > everyone. Despite all my silliness and "freewheeling intelligence" > there being so much noise around these issues - I try to make sure any > position I might try to advocate passes some basic test against common > sense. I am satisfied this position does. I'm satisfied that it does to. But this position made a lot of sense several decades ago (nothing new in your view) and *still* most kids get little if any exposure to computer programming *except* through the CS door in college. Whereas I think CS has a right to develop its own curriculum, I don't think ordinary K-12 math teachers should have been able to strangle computing in the cradle so effectively, without a fight. I wish CS people wouldn't just sit back and say "that's not my problem, I won't see them until college anyway." By then, it's already too late for so many. So many have been turned off already, by how boring and stupid, not to mention difficult, their math classes seemed (with CS not even an option). We're in another dark age. I have similar hopes that Islam will again come to the rescue, even Baghdad specifically, which we've nicknamed Algebra City ("we" the gnu math teachers). > And because I am satisfied it does, I don't feel the need for banners of > any kind, for armies or - I would have thought - for confrontations. > So for you, just having a sensible position is the end of it, hey? Like, "the USA, IF using computer-controlled voting, THEN should have the source code be public and the process transparent." A sensible position no? So there's no fight shaping up, no battle lines to be drawn? I make sense, so now I get to go home and take bath and watch TV? > So I have always been confused why such an idea would meet with *any* > resistance on a list such as this. It has from day one. Which has > always been a clue to me that I had in some sense entered Chinatown, in > arriving here. I'm one of the very few on this list with a history of teaching pre-college age students full time for a living (which is not how I'm living today -- but I still work with the K-12ers, not just the 13-16ers (meaning 4 years after high school)). You also seem to shy away from focusing on children, just want to make sure the Disneys stay out of it somehow. The "resistance" on this list I think has mostly to do with the "not my area of expertise" syndrome i.e. "I want to have expert status in my field, and one way I get that is by deferring to experts in *other* fields -- the golden rule." People who don't properly defer to experts, when on expert turf, are considered arrogant. "You must take your hat off in the presence of kings" is how no one says it anymore, but many still mean it through various social cues. > No - it ain't the Media Lab. > > It is modest. It is unconnected with Revelation, New Ages, and Second > Comings. It brings us to no new dimensions. It actually brings no new > great amount of stature to the geeks of the world, or to the software > industry. > > It must be on the right track. > > Art It wsa "on the right track" thirty years ago when people like Alan Kay first started taking this position. You've apparently added nothing, and now can't understand why anyone would be committing combat troops to the arena, since for you "making sense" is the end of the game, rather than its beginning. Kirby _______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig