Hello Derek, First, we can make reasonable judgments on what is reasonably safe and what is potentially dangerous. Almost anything can be made unsafe in one way or another. I consider my home to be safe, but it is made of wood, nails, bricks, electric wiring, etc.... I can easily use any of these materials for harm as well as for shelter and convenience. My job as a safety engineer is to take things that have known hazards and to mitigate those hazards to the best of my ability.
If you want to discuss overregulation, where do you want to stop? Worldwide, there are regulations regarding almost everything. We don't discuss Chinese politics on this list even though the Chinese government has imposed many regulations that citizens of western nations would find to be unacceptable. We discuss Chinese safety and EMC regulations, but not regulations regarding religion, media or other subjects. In order to have a productive discussion, you need to have representatives, and preferably experts, covering multiple sides of the issue. I believe that this list is limited in the issues for which we have a reasonable quorum. And yes, I knew what to expect when I sent my previous message. If anything, I am surprised by how limited the response has been. I expected that I was opening myself up to a contentious response. I know that in the end, it is up to the list administrators to determine which messages go over the line. I can only provide my opinion. This discussion that I have started must follow my own policies, so I am willing to read the views of others who disagree. Ted Eckert Compliance Engineer Microsoft Corporation ted.eck...@microsoft.com The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 8:40 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: New Product Proposal Hi Ted, now you knew this was coming.... We discuss regulation, that INCLUDES OVER REGULATION. List server members contribute to committees that determine regulations and hearing too many Nanny state opinions sways the regulation process. Thats what I meant when I stated you repeat it until you believe it. Your statement about "potentially unsafe product" is loaded. Water is potentially unsafe, but we would die without it. I'd further like to point out that uncomfortable topics need as much discussion as comfortable ones... Those that don't like can always hit delete. Sincerely, Derek Walton. Ted Eckert wrote: > This list is to address regulations regarding EMC and product safety. I > agree with Lee that the topic is straying too far from the central purpose of > the list. > > I have no objection to the free discussion of various topics. Personally, I > rather be exposed to as many views and as much information as possible to > allow me to make an informed view. However, there are members of this list > who may feel uncomfortable when some topics unrelated to EMC or product > safety are discussed. The list is best served by maintaining a larger > membership that is willing to contribute. > > Even the original post in this series may be considered outside of the core > intent of the list. The laser in question is clearly being abused. Somebody > went through some work to create a potentially dangerous product. There are > regulations regarding the use of Class 3 lasers and the product for sale is > sold without the approvals, documentation and warnings to the user. I rather > see people discuss what regulations apply to such a product and how to sell > it appropriately, if at all. > > Ted Eckert > Compliance Engineer > Microsoft Corporation > ted.eck...@microsoft.com > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my > employer. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 7:57 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: New Product Proposal > > Hi Lee, > > I disagree: this list addresses regulations, and discussing excessive > regulation is totally appropriate. You cant say things are bad without > hearing the opposite side of the argument. > > Sincerely, > > Derek. > > PS, see you in Austin? > > Lee Hill wrote: > >> I feel this topic is getting outside of the intended purpose of the >> list-server >> >> Lee >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton >> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:33 AM >> To: James, Chris >> Cc: Taylor, Michael; Oscar Overton; emc-p...@ieee.org >> Subject: Re: New Product Proposal >> >> Hi Chris, >> >> We all know banning doesn't work, history has shown that: and the Darwin >> awards showcase gene pool removal..... I feel safer in Texas, or >> Arizona, where I know if someone tries a stunt with a weapon that 1/2 >> the resteraunt will stop him/her before a carnage will occur. I no >> longer feel safe like that in Manchester or Warrington where I grew up. >> I've lived in these places, so thats my experience. >> >> Not trying to advocate guns etc, just stress banning doesn't work. That >> just means the bad guys/gals have the things being banned. >> >> So to answer your question, yes, I tolerate some idiots. Better one or >> two crazys being dealt with than the rest of us becoming vanilla... Go >> after the crazies. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Derek. >> >> James, Chris wrote: >> >> >>> So you are happy to have zip guns, modified air weapons firing live >>> rounds and the like on the street too - seems like this device would be >>> equally good for mugging someone. >>> >>> As for the other - the rules are there to protect the majority, >>> hopefully preventing fires, explosions and electrocutions in domestic >>> situations - like you I personally find it an encroachment but unlike >>> many I understand the need for competency when undertaking such work and >>> knowing ones limitations. >>> >>> I have been in houses where mains cable has been nailed along the >>> skirting board and round door frames to feed wall additional sockets in >>> rooms, or in one case a power shower - that owner was actually proud of >>> such handi-work. >>> >>> C >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] >>> Sent: 05 February 2009 15:00 >>> To: James, Chris >>> Cc: Taylor, Michael; Oscar Overton; emc-p...@ieee.org >>> Subject: Re: New Product Proposal >>> >>> hi All, >>> >>> I guess I'm used to being Politically incorrect, it's what life's >>> experiences teaches me to be.. So..... >>> >>> I'm all in favor of devices like these. I DO NOT believe in baning >>> things unless absolutely avoidable. I don't think that the majority >>> should be punished for the stupidity of the few. >>> >>> My birth country was England, where it's absolutely incredible how such >>> a country has been clamped down. You cant install your own gas, or by >>> now electrical appliances by yourself without running legal risks. >>> Actions like restricting experimenting tools totally kill the pioneering >>> >>> spirit! >>> >>> If it IS against the law to sell such devices, it won't be the first >>> time that I've thought the law is an A$$. >>> >>> Not my intent to offend, but it sometimes it seems like we repeat things >>> >>> often enough and begin to believe it. You can start fires with >>> magnifying glasses too: going to ban them? As engineers an pioneers we >>> should be advocating not condemning experimentation like this. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Derek Walton >>> >>> >>> James, Chris wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> ....... and how many more people will start trying this out as it >>>> spreads on the www ..... misuse of laser pointers were bad >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> enough....... >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Taylor, >>> >>> >>> >>>> Michael >>>> Sent: 04 February 2009 19:36 >>>> To: Oscar Overton; emc-p...@ieee.org >>>> Subject: RE: New Product Proposal >>>> >>>> Doesn't this dumb smuck realize he is liable under CFR 21: (sub J), >>>> 1040 for selling a class 3B laser that could toast some one's eye ??? >>>> I'm sure CDRH would love to see the Craigslist and the video. >>>> // Michael Taylor >>>> Loveland, CO >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Oscar >>>> Overton >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:15 PM >>>> To: emc-p...@ieee.org >>>> Subject: New Product Proposal >>>> >>>> How scary is this? >>>> >>>> http://lexington.craigslist.org/ele/1018576822.html >>>> >>>> - >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society >>>> emc-pstc discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your >>> e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> >>> >>> >>> >>>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >>>> http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc >>>> Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> that URL. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >>>> Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html >>>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >>>> >>>> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >>>> Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> >>>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >>>> >>>> For policy questions, send mail to: >>>> Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> >>>> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to >> <emc-p...@ieee.org> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc >> Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that >> URL. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >> Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> >> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> >> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> >> >> - >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc >> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to >> <emc-p...@ieee.org> >> >> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >> http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc >> Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. >> >> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >> Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html >> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >> >> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >> Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> >> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >> >> For policy questions, send mail to: >> Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> >> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> >> >> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > <emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > <emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
