The FDA not withstanding, any "determined" nimrod with a credit card and the "here-hold-my-beer" mentality can purchase a potentially harmful laser online (class IV).
But a gallon of gasoline or a pound of gunpowder in the hands of a teenaged kid thinking he's going to make a Molotov cocktail or fireworks could be far worse; and that stuff is picked up most anywhere. A more similar case could be made that garage built Telsa coils are dangerous. For those of us who know what we are doing (either for technical or entertainment purposes) there limited risk of danger. But some fella with only a high school electrical wiring class, internet instructions, and more money than brains.....anything is bound to happen. I'm with Derek on this, there is little you can do to regulate stupidity; but there is no need to interfere with a legitimate hobbyist? Dave Spencer EMC Engineer Xerox Corp. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Rudd, Adam Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:05 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: New Product Proposal A little further investigation and I found this on the FDA/CDRH website. It specifically addresses the current wave of non-conforming lasers being sold over the internet and includes a method for reporting such violations. http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/radhealth/products/internetlasers.html Adam Rudd EMC Engineer NCR Corporation phone:770.495.2825 adam.r...@ncr.com | www.ncr.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Rudd, Adam Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 12:52 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: New Product Proposal You can find the parts for these for $0 laying around in scrap parts, or computer junk bins. You don't have to use something as expensive as an HD drive laser. An old discarded, or obsolete PC DVD-writer can do the same. All it takes is the parts from the drive plus a couple of AA's and a mag-light type flashlight. If memory serves, we measured 108mW (and some people are supposedly reaching 200). We can light matches, pop balloons, burn engravings in black plastic like the backside of my dvd player's remote =) Very fun geeky project. The only difference is the DVD laser is red instead of blue. Like many things (firearms, automobiles, airsoft/paintball toy-guns, potato-canons), there is little relative danger when used responsibly. For other, illegal uses, I think we already have laws against robbery and assault (no matter what kind of weapon used, firearm, pipe, knife, etc) which should handle such misuse. Be careful drawing parallels between different industries such as lasers and firearms. A person's right to life is a natural/human right and for 100's of years firearms have been the primary means for securing that right as well as being constitutionally protected (at least for US citizens). Laser devices are not. Considering that these flashlight-lasers are extremely easy and cheap to make, the instructions are posted all over the internet (which is virtually impossible to regulate due to scope, international spread of web hosts, and protected free-speech). I can't imagine there is much any committee or government can hope to do other than report violations to the appropriate authorities. I certainly see no need for new regulations. To those with more experience with the FDA, how would they respond if this individual was reported to them? Would the FDA even bat an eye over an individual? Adam Rudd From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ted Eckert Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:23 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: New Product Proposal This list is to address regulations regarding EMC and product safety. I agree with Lee that the topic is straying too far from the central purpose of the list. I have no objection to the free discussion of various topics. Personally, I rather be exposed to as many views and as much information as possible to allow me to make an informed view. However, there are members of this list who may feel uncomfortable when some topics unrelated to EMC or product safety are discussed. The list is best served by maintaining a larger membership that is willing to contribute. Even the original post in this series may be considered outside of the core intent of the list. The laser in question is clearly being abused. Somebody went through some work to create a potentially dangerous product. There are regulations regarding the use of Class 3 lasers and the product for sale is sold without the approvals, documentation and warnings to the user. I rather see people discuss what regulations apply to such a product and how to sell it appropriately, if at all. Ted Eckert Compliance Engineer Microsoft Corporation ted.eck...@microsoft.com The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 7:57 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: New Product Proposal Hi Lee, I disagree: this list addresses regulations, and discussing excessive regulation is totally appropriate. You cant say things are bad without hearing the opposite side of the argument. Sincerely, Derek. PS, see you in Austin? Lee Hill wrote: > I feel this topic is getting outside of the intended purpose of the > list-server > > Lee > > -----Original Message----- > From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Derek Walton > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:33 AM > To: James, Chris > Cc: Taylor, Michael; Oscar Overton; emc-p...@ieee.org > Subject: Re: New Product Proposal > > Hi Chris, > > We all know banning doesn't work, history has shown that: and the Darwin > awards showcase gene pool removal..... I feel safer in Texas, or > Arizona, where I know if someone tries a stunt with a weapon that 1/2 > the resteraunt will stop him/her before a carnage will occur. I no > longer feel safe like that in Manchester or Warrington where I grew up. > I've lived in these places, so thats my experience. > > Not trying to advocate guns etc, just stress banning doesn't work. That > just means the bad guys/gals have the things being banned. > > So to answer your question, yes, I tolerate some idiots. Better one or > two crazys being dealt with than the rest of us becoming vanilla... Go > after the crazies. > > Cheers, > > Derek. > > James, Chris wrote: > >> So you are happy to have zip guns, modified air weapons firing live >> rounds and the like on the street too - seems like this device would be >> equally good for mugging someone. >> >> As for the other - the rules are there to protect the majority, >> hopefully preventing fires, explosions and electrocutions in domestic >> situations - like you I personally find it an encroachment but unlike >> many I understand the need for competency when undertaking such work and >> knowing ones limitations. >> >> I have been in houses where mains cable has been nailed along the >> skirting board and round door frames to feed wall additional sockets in >> rooms, or in one case a power shower - that owner was actually proud of >> such handi-work. >> >> C >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] >> Sent: 05 February 2009 15:00 >> To: James, Chris >> Cc: Taylor, Michael; Oscar Overton; emc-p...@ieee.org >> Subject: Re: New Product Proposal >> >> hi All, >> >> I guess I'm used to being Politically incorrect, it's what life's >> experiences teaches me to be.. So..... >> >> I'm all in favor of devices like these. I DO NOT believe in baning >> things unless absolutely avoidable. I don't think that the majority >> should be punished for the stupidity of the few. >> >> My birth country was England, where it's absolutely incredible how such >> a country has been clamped down. You cant install your own gas, or by >> now electrical appliances by yourself without running legal risks. >> Actions like restricting experimenting tools totally kill the pioneering >> >> spirit! >> >> If it IS against the law to sell such devices, it won't be the first >> time that I've thought the law is an A$$. >> >> Not my intent to offend, but it sometimes it seems like we repeat things >> >> often enough and begin to believe it. You can start fires with >> magnifying glasses too: going to ban them? As engineers an pioneers we >> should be advocating not condemning experimentation like this. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Derek Walton >> >> >> James, Chris wrote: >> >> >>> ....... and how many more people will start trying this out as it >>> spreads on the www ..... misuse of laser pointers were bad >>> >>> >> enough....... >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of >>> >>> >> Taylor, >> >> >>> Michael >>> Sent: 04 February 2009 19:36 >>> To: Oscar Overton; emc-p...@ieee.org >>> Subject: RE: New Product Proposal >>> >>> Doesn't this dumb smuck realize he is liable under CFR 21: (sub J), >>> 1040 for selling a class 3B laser that could toast some one's eye ??? >>> I'm sure CDRH would love to see the Craigslist and the video. >>> // Michael Taylor >>> Loveland, CO >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Oscar >>> Overton >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:15 PM >>> To: emc-p...@ieee.org >>> Subject: New Product Proposal >>> >>> How scary is this? >>> >>> http://lexington.craigslist.org/ele/1018576822.html >>> >>> - >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society >>> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your >>> e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> >>> >>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >>> http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc >>> Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to >>> >>> >> that >> >> >>> URL. >>> >>> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >>> Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html >>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >>> >>> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >>> Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> >>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >>> >>> For policy questions, send mail to: >>> Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> >>> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> >>> >>> >>> Please be advised that this email may contain confidential >>> >>> >> information. >> >> >>> If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, copy or >>> re-transmit this email. If you have received this email in error, >>> please notify us by email by replying to the sender and by telephone >>> (call us collect at +1 202-828-0850) and delete this message and any >>> attachments. Thank you in advance for your cooperation and >>> >>> >> assistance. >> >> >>> In addition, Danaher and its subsidiaries disclaim that the content of >>> this email constitutes an offer to enter into, or the acceptance of, >>> any >>> contract or agreement or any amendment thereto; provided that the >>> foregoing disclaimer does not invalidate the binding effect of any >>> digital or other electronic reproduction of a manual signature that is >>> included in any attachment to this email. >>> >>> - >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society >>> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your >>> e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> >>> >>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >>> http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc >>> Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to >>> >>> >> that >> >> >>> URL. >>> >>> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >>> Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html >>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >>> >>> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >>> Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> >>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >>> >>> For policy questions, send mail to: >>> Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> >>> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------- >>> This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential >>> information intended for a specific individual and purpose. If you >>> are not the intended recipient, delete this message. If you are >>> not the intended recipient, disclosing, copying, distributing, or >>> taking any action based on this message is strictly prohibited. >>> >>> - >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society >>> >>> >> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your >> e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> >> >> >>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: >>> http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc >>> Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to >>> >>> >> that URL. >> >> >>> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ >>> Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html >>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html >>> >>> For help, send mail to the list administrators: >>> Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> >>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> >>> >>> For policy questions, send mail to: >>> Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> >>> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> >>> >>> >>> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > <emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that > URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <emcp...@ptcnh.net> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
