Thanks everyone for your thoughts. But in the case of ESD testing, IEC 61000-4-2 is not a very good standard. We knew this in 1996 where work done by myself and others showed that the waveform needs to have a di/dt spec to rule out the uncontrolled high frequency ringing many simulators generate that bear no connection to reality. This should be a reasonable simple design to do as one simulator already has no high frequency ringing on its current waveform.
In addition, we now know these same simulators have uncontrolled radiation as well that does not reflect what equipment is subjected to in the field. All the work on the waveform was done about 30 years ago and should be in the IEC records. All this causes companies to spend hundreds of millions of dollars (my estimate from familiarity with my client’s designs) per year in delayed product introductions, and to a small extent engineering costs. The costs to redesign simulators would be a tiny fraction of what the current costs to industry are in only one year. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: [email protected] Website: http://dsmith.org ________________________________ From: Brent DeWitt <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2023 5:05:40 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems I suspect that folks who have been directly involved with air-discharge ESD can appreciate it's inherent, operator influenced, uncertainly. Having run both internal and third party EMC test labs, I recognize that few things are done "perfectly" (whatever "perfect" is), but I've always considered it my responsibility to catch the errors and correct them before they influence my customers outcome. The larger the lab, the more likely it is that the experience of the tester will vary. I am not saying that the customer show bear the brunt of that, the lab should have test review processes in place to mitigate it. Had to pitch in..... Brent DeWitt On 8/12/2023 1:47 PM, John Mcbain wrote: The basic question is, "How good is good enough?" Risk standards for product safety address that question to some extent, but it applies to every lab measurement, whether the applicable standards (or regulations) consider it or not. Best regards, John McBain On Sat, Aug 12, 2023 at 2:26 AM John Woodgate <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: But crossing t's and dotting i's is exactly what is required by competence standards, including the several ISO 170XX series. Furthermore, standards specify performance of test equipment, if possible, and only if that is not possible, they specify design. If that is not possible, they specify construction, and indeed many CISPR and other standards specify test set-ups with elaborate drawings. EMC testing is DIFFICULT. It does involve extensive experience and it is costly. Management systems are/should be in place to catch errors. Daily and weekly verifications are required. In many cases, running tests on a known sample are OK, but that's dodgy for ESD, because repeated testing WILL cause damage. On 2023-08-12 03:25, Ken Javor wrote: No way am I jumping in the middle of this debate, but it is extremely useful in another way. A few observations: ESD is by its very nature a chaotic event (air discharge more so than contact). It is not entirely surprising that someone who has spent decades working on something would find examples of non-idealities in the work of technicians doing rote work following canned test procedures. A test facility isn’t going to make a profit employing a septuagenarian devoted to crossing every “t” and dotting every “i.” (Written by someone pushing that age bracket pretty hard). IFF (if and only if) Mr. Smith’s observations are correct, that is an indictment of the test requirement/method. That is, it is the responsibility of the standards committees to write these such that they can be adequately performed by the average test facility and personnel. If it takes someone with five decades of experience, and they must spend an inordinate amount of time ($$$) to get it right, then the standard is a failure. -- Ken Javor (256) 650-5261 From: "doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com&d=DwMDaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww&m=2PwUVOf-nkk5PGnCGiZ_awAOCLYGgF6VrmmUR0MyZYVG8A4TDFmh_VavNrLO9d-D&s=6y86ulvOYE9KMhGkDV_GoB-siQVeeaqGTdX8FXX3cRg&e=>" <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__emcesd.com&d=DwMDaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww&m=2PwUVOf-nkk5PGnCGiZ_awAOCLYGgF6VrmmUR0MyZYVG8A4TDFmh_VavNrLO9d-D&s=6y86ulvOYE9KMhGkDV_GoB-siQVeeaqGTdX8FXX3cRg&e=>" <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> Date: Friday, August 11, 2023 at 11:26 AM To: <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems I didn’t say most labs are bad. Errors do happen and for me almost every lab I have used has made a mistake. These errors are rare but do happen and the effect of a single error can be very costly. One lab made an especially bad mistake for a small company that engaged me that cost the company a lot of money, has since improved their game by instituting quality procedures they should have had anyway. The lab gave the company passing data but in fact the plot looked like the technician forgot to plug the antenna in, noise level of the instrumentation! Based on that, the company signed a contract for price and delivery for a million units of their product. The ultimate fix needed was a different core design of an inductor that cost them US $0.30. $300k is a lot of money for a small company. I can give many more examples. Usually the problem causes a product to fail when it actually should have passed. I have many examples that happened to me over the last 40 years in both private and commercial labs. The errors are still rare, but do happen. Over enough testing a person, like myself, will encounter an error with any given lab. Of the errors I have encountered, three were the result of the staff in the lab not being competent (over a span of 40 years), the rest were just simple mistakes, maybe another dozen or so. Again, this was over decades, so rare, but many millions of dollars were at stake in each case. In two cases, the lab personnel became a bit belligerent when I gently suggested they performed the test incorrectly. In both cases, the labs relented and retested after we examined the test standard and they realized they were testing incorrectly. A lab client needs to keep an eye out to make sure such an error does not happen to them. On the other hand, I have seen a lot of great labs. One, in Silicon Valley, I consider to be the best in the industry! But they did make one mistake on a test for me years ago, minimal impact at the time and it can't happen again. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Website: http://dsmith.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__dsmith.org&d=DwMDaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww&m=2PwUVOf-nkk5PGnCGiZ_awAOCLYGgF6VrmmUR0MyZYVG8A4TDFmh_VavNrLO9d-D&s=VkGik3lWOXo4TvZdnOpheYdzCKLbLUhryOQN60Z1EME&e=> ________________________________ From: John Woodgate <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 11, 2023 07:02 To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> <[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] thoughts on ESD test lab problems That's right. It is good to call attention to problems that may well be deeply hidden or not recognized as a possibility, but it is necessary to concentrate on the facts and leave out peripheral matters that don't help to deal with the issue. On 2023-08-11 14:28, Larry K. 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