----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
Yes, Ruth. Thank you for your response.
Murat
On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 11:03 PM Ruth Catlow <ruthcat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
> Dear Murat,
>
> I take your point. And its a good call to invite me to re-read Alan's
> post, which I think resonates with my own (in the description of
> grandparent as a constraining assigned role).
>
> I was careless. I value the insights into systemic oppression offered by
> intersectional feminist approaches when thinking about this. AND I should
> have made clear that I understand patriarchy (asserted through religion,
> law and family) to be equally oppressive and restrictive to people
> regardless of their sex.
>
> Thanks
> Ruth
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 7:15 PM Murat Nemet-Nejat <mura...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>> Hi Ruth and other participants,
>>
>> Why is the issue and prejudices around aging are focused around women
>> with the added implication that these prejudices are the work of men ("the
>> machinery of patriarch")? As if men do not get old and suffer social
>> prejudices despite the fact that Alan Sondheim gave a good list of them. As
>> far as I can see, no one resp[onded to him. I thinkwe should try to get
>> outside our narrow identity frameworks if we want any meaningful discussios
>> nor sharing of experiences.
>>
>> Ciao,
>> Murat
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 11:20 AM Ruth Catlow <ruthcat...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>
>>> I'd like to thank you all, and especially Annie, for your writing in
>>> this thread.
>>>
>>>
>>> I remember in 2010 when Annie wrote about menopause and sexuality. I was
>>> struck by her anger that no-one ever told her/us that it might be that way.
>>>
>>>
>>> The anger alerted me to something very important.
>>>
>>>
>>> It hadn't occurred to me then that my aging body-chemistry could
>>> permanently change the way it feels to be alive, and in relation to other
>>> people...which it does.
>>>
>>>
>>> And that if it could, that it might open up whole new dimensions of
>>> relating and resonating with the world, whilst leaving behind others. It
>>> does.
>>>
>>>
>>> It also hadn't really dawned on me how much of my place in the world was
>>> made out of something like sexuality, and therefore narrated and shaped by
>>> a mess of political social construction.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a very difficult topic to be open about on a personal
>>> level...another layer of the machinery of patriarchy that determines
>>> women's identity and role in relation to the institution of the family
>>> (rehearsing an old Christian line here I know) - of women's best destiny
>>> lying along the continuum of innocent girl, through sexual creature and
>>> nurturing mother, to kind grandmother, to scary crone - with sexuality
>>> confined to sexual creature and mother segment. To step off this line is
>>> still to invite blame, shame and harm in so many many places.
>>>
>>>
>>> And as with many feminist questions, much of the delicate work of
>>> confronting and rewriting the given narrative to match a living experience
>>> that breaks oppressive and unjust constraints, has to be done first, in
>>> private, to avoid exposing and betraying the personal trust of our closest
>>> friends and lovers. Our shared experiences cannot automatically be used as
>>> subject for public examination.
>>>
>>>
>>> So I read this thread as a wonderful use of the extended zone of trust
>>> created by this 'soft skinned space'. I am deeply appreciative of the
>>> courage and directness of this conversation.
>>>
>>> <3<3<3<3
>>>
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 1:01 PM Annie Abrahams <bram....@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>> Hi Sandy,
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry if I gave that impression, but your remarks were so full of
>>>> enthusiasm and positivity that I needed another take on it. I think
>>>> you understand that.
>>>> Your remark triggered something in me that I tried to analyze and write
>>>> into existence.
>>>> That is not easy.
>>>> I am still thinking about starting a short research that tries to talk
>>>> about sex and ageing. Take a month to see and read all I can, to do some
>>>> interviews and record what I find on a website. Trying to scetch a very
>>>> divers map of the "territory". I feel an urge, but is it enough .... is it
>>>> important?
>>>> Would others be interested? and how should I approach such a thing to
>>>> let it be important to others?
>>>>
>>>> Cheering back
>>>> Annie
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 5:28 AM Allucquere Rosanne Stone <
>>>> allucquere.st...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Annie,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure if you were claiming that my remarks, insofar as they
>>>>> touched on sex, confirmed "mainstream" ideas. Perhaps what I wrote could
>>>>> have been read that way, but only if you don't know me very well. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Sandy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Annie Abrahams wrote on 9/27/19 4:18 AM:
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> When McKenzie asked about ageing and Sandy answered I felt unease. I
>>>>> thought my own experience not relevant for the context and so I didn't
>>>>> react. Also I needed some distance to check my feelings and to see if this
>>>>> wasn't an only personal issue. So I wrote Shu Lea and talked with friends.
>>>>> Thanks Shu Lea for inviting me to try to express myself.
>>>>>
>>>>> My reaction is not about “us” older people – we find our ways - it is
>>>>> for the younger ones (as the 18 year old McKenzie) so they will have a
>>>>> more
>>>>> diverse image of what might come. Sexuality in old age and ageing in
>>>>> general are subjects that are not treated seriously. Ageing can be hard
>>>>> and
>>>>> we should be openly talking about it in detail. Ageing is also beautiful,
>>>>> yes, but not only ….
>>>>> We all have our own stories, our own way of dealing, enjoying and
>>>>> mourning about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> After rereading Sandy's reaction to McKenzie I saw she was more
>>>>> subtile than I first thought, so why was I angry? Probably because hers
>>>>> was
>>>>> the only reaction to McKenzie's question and it was confirming “main
>>>>> stream” ideas I see too often in popular media.
>>>>> “Sex after 60 is still good - it's impossibility is a myth - there are
>>>>> simple solutions for vaginal dryness and erection and ejaculation problems
>>>>> - but you need to take care, to keep it going, to learn how to keep it up
>>>>> ….. “.
>>>>> Why should I do that? Why?
>>>>>
>>>>> For me it feels as if I would have to conform to an unwritten rule.
>>>>> Sex is about penetration …..
>>>>> Is it?
>>>>> Not for me, at least not anymore. There is something “fake” about
>>>>> suggesting it is. We need diversity in the discourse. There should be more
>>>>> stories …
>>>>> Life didn't go on as before and media shouldn't pretend it should /
>>>>> could. It doesn't! And we shouldn't punish ourselves with “false” ideas.
>>>>>
>>>>> For me life became easier - I am now 65. Getting older means going to
>>>>> the important things, not being bothered anymore, but still, I am
>>>>> confronted almost daily with thoughts and things not possible anymore. I
>>>>> doubt what is normal and what not, I resist, I give way. I fear the
>>>>> loneliness coming - I choose not to have children.
>>>>> Sexuality for me is affection, tenderness and bodily sensations and
>>>>> that can still be terrific (great and terrifying at the same time), but it
>>>>> is completely different from the hormone influenced frenzy, athletic
>>>>> activity it was before. So why call it still sex?
>>>>>
>>>>> Something of what I feel might be visible in a 3 min video performance
>>>>> I did with Martina Ruhsam in 2015. "*besides, Dear Body*" was a
>>>>> Turbulence commission. You can see the archive
>>>>> https://vimeo.com/131117890. I wrote about the performance afterwards:
>>>>> “*It felt as if we created a continuum in difference and made a
>>>>> statement that said „don’t worry, this is life“. I wanted it to be a gift.
>>>>> There was a big shock when I looked at the recording of the performance,
>>>>> when I looked at my naked body. I see this body every day in a mirror, but
>>>>> the video image is not the same as a mirror image – there was no head, no
>>>>> action going on, just the body to look at. It took time to overcome my
>>>>> personal aversion to my own ageing body, to accept the breathing image, to
>>>>> accept its reality, to let the video live as an independent object showing
>>>>> ageing, a tender connexion, and a crack.*”
>>>>> https://aabrahams.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/besides-some-reflections-on-the-first-three-performances/
>>>>>
>>>>> Ageing is related to "death" another "taboo" subject - too intimate to
>>>>> talk about? In “*besides, moved by some thing.*” also a turbulence
>>>>> commissions with Martina Ruhsam we talked about death and dying.
>>>>> https://vimeo.com/131117872 (49 min)
>>>>> "*When facing death or illness all the accumulated knowledge
>>>>> surrounding these issues is displaced by experiences that can hardly be
>>>>> shared. Can liminal experiences be communicated verbally?*"
>>>>>
>>>>> After this we had several private online conversation sessions with 6
>>>>> women on the subject. Then we stopped ... technology was not easy for all,
>>>>> connexion sometimes bad and life brought us elsewhere. For some time I
>>>>> have
>>>>> been thinking about starting a "death café" in Montpellier (
>>>>> https://deathcafe.com ) but ....
>>>>> Unfinished, ongoing...
>>>>>
>>>>> merci thanks dank
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:46 AM Shu Lea Cheang <shu...@earthlink.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> dear empyre-ers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The September month on -empyre- doesnt seem to be ending, so many
>>>>>> threads to follow up...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me recall some moments -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> McKenzie Wark ever so inncocently – 11/09/2019 post
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *So Sandy: can you tell me a it about ageing? I just turned 58 and am
>>>>>> already a middle aged woman...*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Allucquere Rosanne Stone ever so cheerfully – 12/09/2019 post
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *I can only tell you about aging from a personal perspective. So ok,
>>>>>> I’m, what, 82, 83, something? I write, code, make stuff, and raise hell,
>>>>>> active in several professional fields, sex is terrific…if anything, it
>>>>>> gets
>>>>>> better with time. This isn’t a tell-all, so I’ll leave it at that. I
>>>>>> don’t hike, climb, or snowboard as much as I did, but I’m beginning to
>>>>>> think that’s psychological. Anyway, if it’s words of encouragement you
>>>>>> want, you can have all I’ve got, and I’ve got plenty. I’m fully aware
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> my view is not a universal one, and I can’t speak for trans* folk who
>>>>>> find
>>>>>> aging hard. But from this admittedly limited perspective, in this
>>>>>> particular embodiment, I intend to keep on adventuring, theorizing, and
>>>>>> making love with the throttle pushed up to 110% until my body simply
>>>>>> explodes. I invite you to join me.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Annie Abrahams asked to bring back these topics - sex death love and
>>>>>> ageing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> · *"**Annie Abrahams: The belief that, after menopause, sexual
>>>>>> intercourse goes on as before is mistaken. At least it didn’t for me.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> made me really angry for some time, as nobody had warned me! It felt very
>>>>>> lonely. I think that the sexual life of post-menopausal women is still
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> much a taboo subject that people shun away from.*"
>>>>>> http://digicult.it/digimag/issue-058/annie-abrahams-allergic-to-utopias/
>>>>>> (2010)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For these last few days of September as leaves yet to fall off the
>>>>>> branches, I like to introduce Annie Abrahams, also bring in Miha
>>>>>> Colner, the curator who’s been preparing an exhibition *On Ageing at
>>>>>> *MGLC – International Centre of Graphic Arts (Ljublijan, Slovania).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Annie Abrahams is a Dutch artist living in France. She has a M2 in
>>>>>> biology from the University of Utrecht and a MA2 from the Academy of Fine
>>>>>> Arts of Arnhem. In her work she questions the possibilities and limits of
>>>>>> communication, specifically investigating its modes under networked
>>>>>> conditions. Using video and performance as well as the internet, she
>>>>>> develops what she calls an aesthetics of attention and trust, in which
>>>>>> human behaviour is the main material. She is known worldwide for her
>>>>>> netart
>>>>>> and is an internationally regarded pioneer of networked performance art
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> collective writing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Full cv bio (336 Ko)
>>>>>> https://www.bram.org/info/aabrahams_cvbio_eng.pdf
>>>>>> 2.3 Mo 20 pages with images - book
>>>>>> https://www.bram.org/info/aabrahams_images.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Miha Colner(1978) is an art historian who works as a curator at MGLC
>>>>>> - International Centre of Graphic Arts, Ljubljana. He is also active as a
>>>>>> publicist, specialised in photography, printmaking, artists’ moving image
>>>>>> and various forms of (new) media art. Since 2005 he has been a
>>>>>> contributor
>>>>>> of newspapers, magazines, specialist publications, and his personal blog,
>>>>>> as well as part-time lecturer. He lives and works in Ljubljana, Slovenia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://mihacolner.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's see how this run, maybe try to smoke Sandy out of cave and get
>>>>>> warkk to bring in some techno beats!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sl
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> empyre forum
>>>> empyre@lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Co-founder & Artistic director of Furtherfield & DECAL Decentralised
>>> Arts Lab
>>> +44 (0) 77370 02879
>>>
>>> *Furtherfield *disrupts and democratises art and technology through
>>> exhibitions,
>>> labs & debate, for deep exploration, open tools & free thinking.
>>> furtherfield.org <http://www.furtherfield.org/>
>>>
>>> *DECAL* Decentralised Arts Lab is an arts, blockchain & web 3.0
>>> technologies research hub
>>>
>>> for fairer, more dynamic & connected cultural ecologies & economies now.
>>>
>>> decal.is <http://www.decal.is>
>>>
>>> Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
>>> registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
>>> Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade,
>>> Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> empyre forum
>>> empyre@lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> empyre forum
>> empyre@lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
>> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
>
>
>
> --
> Co-founder & Artistic director of Furtherfield & DECAL Decentralised Arts
> Lab
> +44 (0) 77370 02879
>
> *Furtherfield *disrupts and democratises art and technology through
> exhibitions,
> labs & debate, for deep exploration, open tools & free thinking.
> furtherfield.org <http://www.furtherfield.org/>
>
> *DECAL* Decentralised Arts Lab is an arts, blockchain & web 3.0
> technologies research hub
>
> for fairer, more dynamic & connected cultural ecologies & economies now.
>
> decal.is <http://www.decal.is>
>
> Furtherfield is a Not-for-Profit Company limited by Guarantee
> registered in England and Wales under the Company No.7005205.
> Registered business address: Ballard Newman, Apex House, Grand Arcade,
> Tally Ho Corner, London N12 0EH.
>
> _______________________________________________
> empyre forum
> empyre@lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
> http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
_______________________________________________
empyre forum
empyre@lists.artdesign.unsw.edu.au
http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
