On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:15 PM, Youness Alaoui <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote: > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote: > >> On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 04:07:30 -0400 Youness Alaoui >> <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: >> >> > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Carsten Haitzler >> > <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote: >> > >> > > On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:05:20 -0400 Youness Alaoui >> > > <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: >> > > >> > > i'm already working on taskbar. i've fixed horizontal sizing issues >> > > already. i >> > > need to fix theme up. t_unix has pending patches for xrandr >> multi-screen i >> > > have >> > > yet to look at - if someone wants a release them why not review those >> > > patches >> > > and try them out while i'm busy? otherwise this just takes longer. we >> > > can't set >> > > dates because so many people agree to do shit and then DONT DO IT.. in >> the >> > > end... i do most of it. look at: >> > > >> > >> > Ok that's cool, just let me know and I can stress test and report bugs on >> > taskbar or any other module. I also need the multiscreen stuff, right >> now I >> > have a script that uses xrandr, so I got the setup ready and I can test >> it >> > for you. >> > As for dates, yes, set a date, and if someone doesn't do shit, then too >> > bad, the missing features will be missing features, it shouldn't mean a >> > delay of another year. >> >> no - i'm not setting a date. i set a task list. >> > > Yeah yeah, you've made that pretty clear already, the thing is, we give > reasons why this would be better, but your only argument is "because I > don't want to" > > >> >> > > http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release >> > > >> > > of the list left the following could be dropped: >> > > >> > > * connman module ui improvement >> > > * config modules for missing e config vars >> > > >> > > the rest are not droppable. of the droppable ones the connman ui is >> more >> > > droppable. but thats MOOT right now as these are not the last 2 things >> > > left. >> > > >> > >> > We went through the list with Cedric and Gustavo, and this is the list >> with >> > comments : >> > - Fix EFM to be completely reliable/functional >> > --> That's not a feature, those are bugs, and if they are not fixed by >> > the time RC1 is fixed then it's not an issue to fix them between RC1 and >> > final release. >> > - Redo resolution settings module >> > --> It is important, and I need it myself *but* people can live >> without >> > it. Those who can't will just have to endure it or wait for the next >> > release. >> > Anyways, if this work has already been started (or not hard >> > enough), then IF it can be done for RC1 then it can be included, >> otherwise >> > too bad. >> > - Randr config module/integration >> > --> I don't really know what it means, so I can't comment >> >> both of the above are the same and i disagree. people can't live without. >> this >> decision was agreed on back in march.. actually before that we knew there >> was a >> real need. >> > > Well I don't think so, but if you really think people can't live without it > (and can't live without e17), then someone has to make it work by the time > the deadline is reached. If not, then too bad, if you can't live without > it, then go hang yourself. > > >> >> > - Keymap config >> > --> Same as the resolution module, while it is necessary, people can >> live >> > without it, otherwise, they'll endure it or wait. If it can be done by >> the >> > time of RC1 release, then bugfixes can be added for the final release. >> >> disagree. alphas are meant to be feature complete. and so what? so what if >> we >> do an alpha now? what will that change? all it will do is encourage people >> to >> NOT finish things. >> > > how will it encourage people to not finish things? and what it will > achieve? well I thought it was pretty obvious, but since you need me to > spell it out for you : > - You need a feature freeze in svn before releasing > - You need to fix bugs between feature freeze and release > - You need an alpha release to get bugreports on what needs to be fixed > before the release. > > >> >> > - Get a default theme 100% ready to ship >> > --> This is a no brainer, that extra polishing (what exactly is missing >> > anyways?) can be done from RC1 to final. >> > - Connman module ui needs to be improved >> > --> I don't use it so not much to say about it, I use nm-applet with >> the >> > systray module. But I guess it's the same as above, while it's needed, >> it's >> > not something that will break the release. >> > - Add config modules for all missing E config vars >> > --> Same as above. >> > >> > >> > > >> > > if people WANT A RELEASE, THEN STEPUP AND DO SOMETHING! >> > > >> > > with those done then we can absolutely do an alpha (though it must wait >> > > until >> > > after efl 1.1 which is now due in about 3 weeks). >> > > >> > Why not do the alpha (or RC1, it's the same thing, different naming) at >> the >> > same time as efl 1.1 release? That's what we discussed and I think it's a >> > good idea. This also sets a date for people to get their patches in >> before >> > the alpha release. >> >> hell no - not at the same time. we have enough work to do on efl1.1 - why >> does >> it matter that they are at the same time? other than a sudden desire to >> release >> from a whole bunch of people not working on the release? >> > > It doesn't matter that they are at the same time, what does matter is to > have a fixed date for it. I said at the same time as efl 1.1 because cedric > suggested that (at the conference). And this isn't a "sudden desire", it's > a desire that's been there for years, you just don't want to see it. You > need time to rest post efl 1.1 release, fine, but set a reasonable date. > > >> >> > > mind u - this debate has come up several times in the past, every 6-12 >> mo >> > > or >> > > so. and u know what happens? NOTHING. the people who all want it don't >> DO >> > > anything. i give a list of things to do (a rough hand-wavy one) and >> then >> > > they >> > > proceed to do nothing. i have learned lessons over the 16 years of >> doing >> > > things. 99% of people like to spout opinions and tell you what you >> should >> > > do. 1% >> > > actually get off their butts and make things happen at all. 0.01% of >> them >> > > ACTUALLY have the fortitude to stick it out long enough to get things >> DONE. >> > > >> > Yes, I'm pretty sure it's an old debate.. now I wonder why there still >> was >> > no release.. maybe it's because "it wasn't stable and noone did anything" >> > or maybe it's because rasterman vetoed everything, decided to get pissed >> > and scare off everyone. The purpose of this thread (and probably all the >> >> i always set a todo list - normally broad with room to wiggle, and people >> just >> barely or didn't work on it. what i'm tried of is the rudeness of wanting >> to >> tell those doing something what to do , when to do it and how to do it and >> then >> not actually be doing things. that's just plain rude. don't expect me to >> feel >> all love and happiness because of it. >> > > you are tired of the rudeness? well sorry about that! And I'm also pretty > fucking tired of your condescending arrogant bullshit! Yeah yeah, I'm the > new guy, I'm just a user, I haven't contributed anything worthy, so I > should shut up, but you know what, I still have a voice, and I've heard so > many 'rumors' about you, but now I believe them after I've actually > experienced the rasterman ever since I joined. You talk in a condescending > manner, you are arrogant, and you piss pretty much everybody off, I don't > know how e17 lasted this long with you driving away everyone.. oh wait, > yeah, people did leave the team, and maybe if you weren't being the > dictator that you're trying to be, the community would be much much much > larger. > I have a lot of respect for your work, you definitely have a lot of skills > that very few people have, but this does not mean you can be a tyrant > dictator and do whatever you want, ignoring everyone's opinions. I > understand E is basically your baby, and for sure your word is important > but you need to listen to what people tell you and stop being so fucking > stubborn (and I'm not saying this just about this thread btw)! > While I'm on the subject, like what Gustavo said, someone emails and says > he wants to help with something and all you could answer him is that he'll > fail, how stupid is that? is that how you build a community ? you are > poisoning it from the inside, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who > thinks that (I actually know I'm not), but I always speak my mind, I'm not > scared of you or scared of hurting your feelings, while I respect, I won't > hold out on my thoughts just out of that respect, so I don't know if others > here already told you what I've just said, or maybe they tried to be more > subtle about it and you didn't udnerstand it, or maybe they did and you > ignored it, or maybe they simply didn't out of fear/respect, or the usual > "oh he's like that, let him".. but I needed to get that off my chest. (and > yes, before I get flooded with responses, I'm not saying everyone here > would agree with what I said, but I know at least a few who would). > You say I'm being rude because I dare open my mouth without doing any of > the work you want.. well I've wanted to help, but everytime it seems I lose > my motivation, I swear I could have started working on that TODO right now, > but every time I read an email from you, I get tired of that arrogance and > just want to say "fuck it".. If I ask something or suggest something, you > always answer like you're the all knowing God and I'm just a stupid little > ant, so yeah, I'm not going to code for you, I'm not going to boost your > ego by falling in line and following your orders, I'm not your stupid > little soldier who is braindead and needs your guidance in this world. > Maybe that's why people don't do any of the code you'd like them to do.. > And for your information, I'm not "not helping", you need to realize that I > am, by this very thread, by this very discussion, I am wasting my time to > share my thoughts and help the project in a way I feel is useful. If you > think that 'work' and 'help' can only be quantified by number of lines of > code written or number of TODO items fixed, then you're wrong. But then > again, of course, since you know everything and everyone's opinions are > just a big pile of crap, so sure, you ignore everything the others say, so > in the end, we're not helping. > I may be harsh in what I just said, but I'm not politician, I'm not gonna > sugarcoat it, especially since yourself don't even care enough to sugarcoat > whatever crap you say to others. > Oh, and you should probably read this, I think it's talking about you : > http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project > > >> >> > previous discussions) is to get a point across, the release is needed, >> and >> > most people think that there is no point in delaying it, but if you're >> too >> > stubborn on that, maybe that's the reason no release was ever made, not >> > about people not contributing (which btw, seeing how you sometimes answer >> > aggressively, it might actually have scared away contributors). >> >> check history before you speculate on it. there has always been a todo >> list - >> it has fluctuated over time but broadly has had all the same content. >> reality >> is that it isn't released because people were not helping to make it >> happen. >> >> let's just deal with the most recent stuff - the release wiki page. i >> suggest u >> check its history in trac. e17 release is awaiting that. yes - i veto the >> release until that is done. so hold all your arguments EXCEPT about the >> todo >> list itself. that means either do stuff or convince me to nuke it from the >> list. >> > > Why do you get to veto? Why isn't it a vote? We've given you valid reasons > to not do it that way, but you have no reasons to stick to the TODO other > than your veto and because you want it that way. > > >> >> > > to everyone debating e17 release - get off your butts and do the todo >> > > list. if >> > > you actually DID this... it'd have been done long ago. >> > > >> > Still missing the point, the TODO list is not the blocker, it seems to be >> > you and your decision. The release can be made now, the TODO list is >> > irrelevant. >> >> thats a load of horse dung. the TODO list is the list of things to do FOR a >> release. thus very simply - the release is blocked by the todo list. i'm >> sorry >> - i'm not in the school of thought that thinks u just crank out a release >> every >> N weeks/months just because a date rolls around. >> > > And you're too stubborn to understand that the release should NOT be > blocked by the todo list, and "that's a load of horse dung" is not a valid > reason.. and you not being in whatever school of thought is not a valid > reason either. > > >> >> > I tried to compromise, I tried to come up with a solution that would make >> > everyone happy but you simply ignored it. I didn't write a long email to >> > explain things just to have 99% of it ignored. >> >> the todo list already is a compromise. now the goal is to throw it out >> entirely >> (pretty much). that's not a compromise. nowhere near it. >> > the todo list is already a compromise? how is it a compromise? is it > because it represents what the almight Carsten feels should be done and he > has taken the time to write it up for us mere mortals instead of keeping > the thought of "God's plan is unknown to men" > > >> > Assign a release manager, set specific dates for feature freezes (which >> > would come with a release candidate) and specific dates for releases. Do >> an >> > alpha at the same time as the efl 1.1 (NO MATTER WHAT) and get that out >> of >> > the door, it's in 3 weeks? then you got 3 weeks to do these little new >> > features you want ('you' being anyone who wants to contribute of course), >> >> i'm 100% busy and solid with efl for these 3 weeks - so hell no. >> > so why did you previously say "in weeks" when it was said that they'd be > fixed in months? so that means it will still not be fixed in months... > > >> > and you said youself it's a matter of weeks, so prove it. If it can't be >> > done in the next 3 weeks, then it will never be done. Then after that, >> you >> > got 1 month to iron out any bugs reported and make the whole (including >> the >> > new, somewhat buggy, features added right before the alpha release) thing >> > more stable, then release 1 month later! If there are still pending bugs >> by >> > that time, then too bad, you missed the window, next release will have >> > those bugs fixed. >> >> an e17 alpha comes out __AFTER__ efl 1.1 is out. date is not set yet. >> > I don't mind that, but the date must be set. > > >> >> > > fyi - that todo list was decided because those items were deemed TO be >> > > critical enough to stall a release. even YOU are crying out for >> multimon >> > > config! you don't even give a consistent stance. >> > > >> > >> > Yes, they WERE deemed critical, now I think what is actually critical is >> to >> > have a release, it's time to revisit with the current situation what is >> > actually deemed critical. I gave my opinion above about them. >> >> i disagree. >> > great argumentation, thanks, now I understand better your reasons. > > > >> >> > As for my consistency, no, I am consistent, while yes, I do want and need >> > multi monitor support, like I said, if it can't make it then too bad! I >> > prefer to see a release, to see exposure and to see the 90% of users who >> > may not need multimon support be happy to use E17, and the remaining 10% >> > also happy but somewhat annoyed and impatient to get the next release >> that >> > fixes their use cases. >> >> disagree. the reasons for needing this hasn't changed. >> > you have not given any argument against mine. > > >> >> let me be very plain here. if the people insisting on a release in "1 >> month" (or whatever - given some short timeframe) regardless of features, >> todo >> list or quality are precisely the people NOT helping with the release. >> it's all >> armchair experts not pitching in. if you had been, if you did, the todo >> list >> would be long done by now and we'd have a release. if you help with the >> release >> then we will get what u want - a release in a short timeframe. >> > Oh you're very clear, we don't have a right to an opinion because our name > is not Carsten. And if we do have an opinion, then you don't want to hear > it because we're not slaves enough to listen to you and shut up when you > say something, and if we do contribute then it doesn't matter anyways > because we should be contributing to Carsten's vision and fixing his TODO > list. > Well, the "armchair expert" does not WANT to help out anymore. > >
calm down. the TODO is a collection of things most developers agree to be necessary for a release. if you want a release to happen earlier work on it. BR >> >> -- >> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- >> The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook > in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ Apps > for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. Discover just how easy and simple > it is! http://p.sf.net/sfu/android-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ Apps for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. Discover just how easy and simple it is! http://p.sf.net/sfu/android-dev2dev _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
