On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 8:46 PM, hannes.janet...@gmail.com < hannes.janet...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 12:35 AM, Youness Alaoui > <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:29 PM, hannes.janet...@gmail.com < > > hannes.janet...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:15 PM, Youness Alaoui > >> <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote: > >> > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Carsten Haitzler < > ras...@rasterman.com > >> >wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 04:07:30 -0400 Youness Alaoui > >> >> <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: > >> >> > >> >> > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Carsten Haitzler > >> >> > <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:05:20 -0400 Youness Alaoui > >> >> > > <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> said: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > i'm already working on taskbar. i've fixed horizontal sizing > issues > >> >> > > already. i > >> >> > > need to fix theme up. t_unix has pending patches for xrandr > >> >> multi-screen i > >> >> > > have > >> >> > > yet to look at - if someone wants a release them why not review > >> those > >> >> > > patches > >> >> > > and try them out while i'm busy? otherwise this just takes > longer. > >> we > >> >> > > can't set > >> >> > > dates because so many people agree to do shit and then DONT DO > IT.. > >> in > >> >> the > >> >> > > end... i do most of it. look at: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > Ok that's cool, just let me know and I can stress test and report > >> bugs on > >> >> > taskbar or any other module. I also need the multiscreen stuff, > right > >> >> now I > >> >> > have a script that uses xrandr, so I got the setup ready and I can > >> test > >> >> it > >> >> > for you. > >> >> > As for dates, yes, set a date, and if someone doesn't do shit, then > >> too > >> >> > bad, the missing features will be missing features, it shouldn't > mean > >> a > >> >> > delay of another year. > >> >> > >> >> no - i'm not setting a date. i set a task list. > >> >> > >> > > >> > Yeah yeah, you've made that pretty clear already, the thing is, we > give > >> > reasons why this would be better, but your only argument is "because I > >> > don't want to" > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Release > >> >> > > > >> >> > > of the list left the following could be dropped: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > * connman module ui improvement > >> >> > > * config modules for missing e config vars > >> >> > > > >> >> > > the rest are not droppable. of the droppable ones the connman ui > is > >> >> more > >> >> > > droppable. but thats MOOT right now as these are not the last 2 > >> things > >> >> > > left. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > We went through the list with Cedric and Gustavo, and this is the > list > >> >> with > >> >> > comments : > >> >> > - Fix EFM to be completely reliable/functional > >> >> > --> That's not a feature, those are bugs, and if they are not > >> fixed by > >> >> > the time RC1 is fixed then it's not an issue to fix them between > RC1 > >> and > >> >> > final release. > >> >> > - Redo resolution settings module > >> >> > --> It is important, and I need it myself *but* people can live > >> >> without > >> >> > it. Those who can't will just have to endure it or wait for the > next > >> >> > release. > >> >> > Anyways, if this work has already been started (or not > hard > >> >> > enough), then IF it can be done for RC1 then it can be included, > >> >> otherwise > >> >> > too bad. > >> >> > - Randr config module/integration > >> >> > --> I don't really know what it means, so I can't comment > >> >> > >> >> both of the above are the same and i disagree. people can't live > >> without. > >> >> this > >> >> decision was agreed on back in march.. actually before that we knew > >> there > >> >> was a > >> >> real need. > >> >> > >> > > >> > Well I don't think so, but if you really think people can't live > without > >> it > >> > (and can't live without e17), then someone has to make it work by the > >> time > >> > the deadline is reached. If not, then too bad, if you can't live > without > >> > it, then go hang yourself. > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > - Keymap config > >> >> > --> Same as the resolution module, while it is necessary, people > can > >> >> live > >> >> > without it, otherwise, they'll endure it or wait. If it can be > done by > >> >> the > >> >> > time of RC1 release, then bugfixes can be added for the final > release. > >> >> > >> >> disagree. alphas are meant to be feature complete. and so what? so > what > >> if > >> >> we > >> >> do an alpha now? what will that change? all it will do is encourage > >> people > >> >> to > >> >> NOT finish things. > >> >> > >> > > >> > how will it encourage people to not finish things? and what it will > >> > achieve? well I thought it was pretty obvious, but since you need me > to > >> > spell it out for you : > >> > - You need a feature freeze in svn before releasing > >> > - You need to fix bugs between feature freeze and release > >> > - You need an alpha release to get bugreports on what needs to be > fixed > >> > before the release. > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > - Get a default theme 100% ready to ship > >> >> > --> This is a no brainer, that extra polishing (what exactly is > >> missing > >> >> > anyways?) can be done from RC1 to final. > >> >> > - Connman module ui needs to be improved > >> >> > --> I don't use it so not much to say about it, I use nm-applet > with > >> >> the > >> >> > systray module. But I guess it's the same as above, while it's > needed, > >> >> it's > >> >> > not something that will break the release. > >> >> > - Add config modules for all missing E config vars > >> >> > --> Same as above. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > if people WANT A RELEASE, THEN STEPUP AND DO SOMETHING! > >> >> > > > >> >> > > with those done then we can absolutely do an alpha (though it > must > >> wait > >> >> > > until > >> >> > > after efl 1.1 which is now due in about 3 weeks). > >> >> > > > >> >> > Why not do the alpha (or RC1, it's the same thing, different > naming) > >> at > >> >> the > >> >> > same time as efl 1.1 release? That's what we discussed and I think > >> it's a > >> >> > good idea. This also sets a date for people to get their patches in > >> >> before > >> >> > the alpha release. > >> >> > >> >> hell no - not at the same time. we have enough work to do on efl1.1 - > >> why > >> >> does > >> >> it matter that they are at the same time? other than a sudden desire > to > >> >> release > >> >> from a whole bunch of people not working on the release? > >> >> > >> > > >> > It doesn't matter that they are at the same time, what does matter is > to > >> > have a fixed date for it. I said at the same time as efl 1.1 because > >> cedric > >> > suggested that (at the conference). And this isn't a "sudden desire", > >> it's > >> > a desire that's been there for years, you just don't want to see it. > You > >> > need time to rest post efl 1.1 release, fine, but set a reasonable > date. > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > mind u - this debate has come up several times in the past, every > >> 6-12 > >> >> mo > >> >> > > or > >> >> > > so. and u know what happens? NOTHING. the people who all want it > >> don't > >> >> DO > >> >> > > anything. i give a list of things to do (a rough hand-wavy one) > and > >> >> then > >> >> > > they > >> >> > > proceed to do nothing. i have learned lessons over the 16 years > of > >> >> doing > >> >> > > things. 99% of people like to spout opinions and tell you what > you > >> >> should > >> >> > > do. 1% > >> >> > > actually get off their butts and make things happen at all. > 0.01% of > >> >> them > >> >> > > ACTUALLY have the fortitude to stick it out long enough to get > >> things > >> >> DONE. > >> >> > > > >> >> > Yes, I'm pretty sure it's an old debate.. now I wonder why there > still > >> >> was > >> >> > no release.. maybe it's because "it wasn't stable and noone did > >> anything" > >> >> > or maybe it's because rasterman vetoed everything, decided to get > >> pissed > >> >> > and scare off everyone. The purpose of this thread (and probably > all > >> the > >> >> > >> >> i always set a todo list - normally broad with room to wiggle, and > >> people > >> >> just > >> >> barely or didn't work on it. what i'm tried of is the rudeness of > >> wanting > >> >> to > >> >> tell those doing something what to do , when to do it and how to do > it > >> and > >> >> then > >> >> not actually be doing things. that's just plain rude. don't expect > me to > >> >> feel > >> >> all love and happiness because of it. > >> >> > >> > > >> > you are tired of the rudeness? well sorry about that! And I'm also > pretty > >> > fucking tired of your condescending arrogant bullshit! Yeah yeah, I'm > the > >> > new guy, I'm just a user, I haven't contributed anything worthy, so I > >> > should shut up, but you know what, I still have a voice, and I've > heard > >> so > >> > many 'rumors' about you, but now I believe them after I've actually > >> > experienced the rasterman ever since I joined. You talk in a > >> condescending > >> > manner, you are arrogant, and you piss pretty much everybody off, I > don't > >> > know how e17 lasted this long with you driving away everyone.. oh > wait, > >> > yeah, people did leave the team, and maybe if you weren't being the > >> > dictator that you're trying to be, the community would be much much > much > >> > larger. > >> > I have a lot of respect for your work, you definitely have a lot of > >> skills > >> > that very few people have, but this does not mean you can be a tyrant > >> > dictator and do whatever you want, ignoring everyone's opinions. I > >> > understand E is basically your baby, and for sure your word is > important > >> > but you need to listen to what people tell you and stop being so > fucking > >> > stubborn (and I'm not saying this just about this thread btw)! > >> > While I'm on the subject, like what Gustavo said, someone emails and > says > >> > he wants to help with something and all you could answer him is that > >> he'll > >> > fail, how stupid is that? is that how you build a community ? you are > >> > poisoning it from the inside, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one > >> who > >> > thinks that (I actually know I'm not), but I always speak my mind, I'm > >> not > >> > scared of you or scared of hurting your feelings, while I respect, I > >> won't > >> > hold out on my thoughts just out of that respect, so I don't know if > >> others > >> > here already told you what I've just said, or maybe they tried to be > more > >> > subtle about it and you didn't udnerstand it, or maybe they did and > you > >> > ignored it, or maybe they simply didn't out of fear/respect, or the > usual > >> > "oh he's like that, let him".. but I needed to get that off my chest. > >> (and > >> > yes, before I get flooded with responses, I'm not saying everyone here > >> > would agree with what I said, but I know at least a few who would). > >> > You say I'm being rude because I dare open my mouth without doing any > of > >> > the work you want.. well I've wanted to help, but everytime it seems I > >> lose > >> > my motivation, I swear I could have started working on that TODO right > >> now, > >> > but every time I read an email from you, I get tired of that arrogance > >> and > >> > just want to say "fuck it".. If I ask something or suggest something, > you > >> > always answer like you're the all knowing God and I'm just a stupid > >> little > >> > ant, so yeah, I'm not going to code for you, I'm not going to boost > your > >> > ego by falling in line and following your orders, I'm not your stupid > >> > little soldier who is braindead and needs your guidance in this world. > >> > Maybe that's why people don't do any of the code you'd like them to > do.. > >> > And for your information, I'm not "not helping", you need to realize > >> that I > >> > am, by this very thread, by this very discussion, I am wasting my > time to > >> > share my thoughts and help the project in a way I feel is useful. If > you > >> > think that 'work' and 'help' can only be quantified by number of > lines of > >> > code written or number of TODO items fixed, then you're wrong. But > then > >> > again, of course, since you know everything and everyone's opinions > are > >> > just a big pile of crap, so sure, you ignore everything the others > say, > >> so > >> > in the end, we're not helping. > >> > I may be harsh in what I just said, but I'm not politician, I'm not > gonna > >> > sugarcoat it, especially since yourself don't even care enough to > >> sugarcoat > >> > whatever crap you say to others. > >> > Oh, and you should probably read this, I think it's talking about you > : > >> > http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > previous discussions) is to get a point across, the release is > needed, > >> >> and > >> >> > most people think that there is no point in delaying it, but if > you're > >> >> too > >> >> > stubborn on that, maybe that's the reason no release was ever made, > >> not > >> >> > about people not contributing (which btw, seeing how you sometimes > >> answer > >> >> > aggressively, it might actually have scared away contributors). > >> >> > >> >> check history before you speculate on it. there has always been a > todo > >> >> list - > >> >> it has fluctuated over time but broadly has had all the same content. > >> >> reality > >> >> is that it isn't released because people were not helping to make it > >> >> happen. > >> >> > >> >> let's just deal with the most recent stuff - the release wiki page. i > >> >> suggest u > >> >> check its history in trac. e17 release is awaiting that. yes - i veto > >> the > >> >> release until that is done. so hold all your arguments EXCEPT about > the > >> >> todo > >> >> list itself. that means either do stuff or convince me to nuke it > from > >> the > >> >> list. > >> >> > >> > > >> > Why do you get to veto? Why isn't it a vote? We've given you valid > >> reasons > >> > to not do it that way, but you have no reasons to stick to the TODO > other > >> > than your veto and because you want it that way. > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > to everyone debating e17 release - get off your butts and do the > >> todo > >> >> > > list. if > >> >> > > you actually DID this... it'd have been done long ago. > >> >> > > > >> >> > Still missing the point, the TODO list is not the blocker, it seems > >> to be > >> >> > you and your decision. The release can be made now, the TODO list > is > >> >> > irrelevant. > >> >> > >> >> thats a load of horse dung. the TODO list is the list of things to do > >> FOR a > >> >> release. thus very simply - the release is blocked by the todo list. > i'm > >> >> sorry > >> >> - i'm not in the school of thought that thinks u just crank out a > >> release > >> >> every > >> >> N weeks/months just because a date rolls around. > >> >> > >> > > >> > And you're too stubborn to understand that the release should NOT be > >> > blocked by the todo list, and "that's a load of horse dung" is not a > >> valid > >> > reason.. and you not being in whatever school of thought is not a > valid > >> > reason either. > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > I tried to compromise, I tried to come up with a solution that > would > >> make > >> >> > everyone happy but you simply ignored it. I didn't write a long > email > >> to > >> >> > explain things just to have 99% of it ignored. > >> >> > >> >> the todo list already is a compromise. now the goal is to throw it > out > >> >> entirely > >> >> (pretty much). that's not a compromise. nowhere near it. > >> >> > >> > the todo list is already a compromise? how is it a compromise? is it > >> > because it represents what the almight Carsten feels should be done > and > >> he > >> > has taken the time to write it up for us mere mortals instead of > keeping > >> > the thought of "God's plan is unknown to men" > >> > > >> > > >> >> > Assign a release manager, set specific dates for feature freezes > >> (which > >> >> > would come with a release candidate) and specific dates for > releases. > >> Do > >> >> an > >> >> > alpha at the same time as the efl 1.1 (NO MATTER WHAT) and get that > >> out > >> >> of > >> >> > the door, it's in 3 weeks? then you got 3 weeks to do these little > new > >> >> > features you want ('you' being anyone who wants to contribute of > >> course), > >> >> > >> >> i'm 100% busy and solid with efl for these 3 weeks - so hell no. > >> >> > >> > so why did you previously say "in weeks" when it was said that > they'd be > >> > fixed in months? so that means it will still not be fixed in months... > >> > > >> > > >> >> > and you said youself it's a matter of weeks, so prove it. If it > can't > >> be > >> >> > done in the next 3 weeks, then it will never be done. Then after > that, > >> >> you > >> >> > got 1 month to iron out any bugs reported and make the whole > >> (including > >> >> the > >> >> > new, somewhat buggy, features added right before the alpha release) > >> thing > >> >> > more stable, then release 1 month later! If there are still pending > >> bugs > >> >> by > >> >> > that time, then too bad, you missed the window, next release will > have > >> >> > those bugs fixed. > >> >> > >> >> an e17 alpha comes out __AFTER__ efl 1.1 is out. date is not set yet. > >> >> > >> > I don't mind that, but the date must be set. > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > > fyi - that todo list was decided because those items were deemed > TO > >> be > >> >> > > critical enough to stall a release. even YOU are crying out for > >> >> multimon > >> >> > > config! you don't even give a consistent stance. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > Yes, they WERE deemed critical, now I think what is actually > critical > >> is > >> >> to > >> >> > have a release, it's time to revisit with the current situation > what > >> is > >> >> > actually deemed critical. I gave my opinion above about them. > >> >> > >> >> i disagree. > >> >> > >> > great argumentation, thanks, now I understand better your reasons. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > As for my consistency, no, I am consistent, while yes, I do want > and > >> need > >> >> > multi monitor support, like I said, if it can't make it then too > bad! > >> I > >> >> > prefer to see a release, to see exposure and to see the 90% of > users > >> who > >> >> > may not need multimon support be happy to use E17, and the > remaining > >> 10% > >> >> > also happy but somewhat annoyed and impatient to get the next > release > >> >> that > >> >> > fixes their use cases. > >> >> > >> >> disagree. the reasons for needing this hasn't changed. > >> >> > >> > you have not given any argument against mine. > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> let me be very plain here. if the people insisting on a release in "1 > >> >> month" (or whatever - given some short timeframe) regardless of > >> features, > >> >> todo > >> >> list or quality are precisely the people NOT helping with the > release. > >> >> it's all > >> >> armchair experts not pitching in. if you had been, if you did, the > todo > >> >> list > >> >> would be long done by now and we'd have a release. if you help with > the > >> >> release > >> >> then we will get what u want - a release in a short timeframe. > >> >> > >> > Oh you're very clear, we don't have a right to an opinion because our > >> name > >> > is not Carsten. And if we do have an opinion, then you don't want to > hear > >> > it because we're not slaves enough to listen to you and shut up when > you > >> > say something, and if we do contribute then it doesn't matter anyways > >> > because we should be contributing to Carsten's vision and fixing his > TODO > >> > list. > >> > Well, the "armchair expert" does not WANT to help out anymore. > >> > > >> > > >> > >> calm down. the TODO is a collection of things most developers agree to > >> be necessary for a release. if you want a release to happen earlier > >> work on it. > >> > > I don't believe all developers agree on that TODO, it feels like it's > > raster's TODO and some people either agree with it, or suck up to the big > > man, or their opinion was ignored. > No, the TODO is based on things discussed on irc and at cebit. > Yes, I'm sure it was discussed, not saying the contrary, but from the recent emails in this specific threads, there are other devs who said they do not agree with the todo items, unless I read it wrong. > Maybe the reason why raster is doing all > > the work and nobody works on that TODO is because this is an open source > > project, so everyone works on it on their own free time, which means they > > only do what they want, what motivates them. > You forgot discomfitor and T_UNIX working (and having worked) on big > tasks of the TODO. Then there are others fixing bugs which is also > critical for release but not on the list. > I didn't "forget" about them. I simply honestly don't know who is active and how, I am still new here and haven't been following the internals too much. I do agree that my statement may have been untrue and based on hypothesis, but it was as a response to raster saying that he's doing everything himself (unless I misread that too). > > If everyone wanted those > > features, they would have finished working on them by now. > > And I don't want a release to happen earlier, I want releases to be > planned > > and release dates to be set and work to be done to make it happen on > time, > > I don't want to have a todo list dictate when the release should happen, > > and not knowing if it's in one week or one year. > > > For initial release it is better to define the set of features that we > want to provide and make sure that those work imo, especially after > ten years of development. After that is done I'm all for having > release cycles. > Thanks, quite honestly the first 'sane' response I've seen here so far (from "the opposition") as you are giving an actual argument to the immediate problem. I do agree with you on that, definitely a set of features is needed for the initial release. I don't agree though on the ones being listed in the todo as being blockers for the release. > > > >> > >> BR > >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > -------------- > >> >> The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > Get your Android app more play: Bring it to the BlackBerry PlayBook > >> > in minutes. BlackBerry App World™ now supports Android™ Apps > >> > for the BlackBerry® PlayBook™. 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