reliying on logic can be dangerous , things are unpridictable , to know is delusion , to not know is ignorance / TS
I agree... Empiricism is at the root of, at least, Realism and Nominalism.... Idealism and Phenomeology tend more toward "logic"... although there really isn't much sense to most of their so-called "logic"... W. of Ockham is probably best appreciated by me for FIRST making "the" distinction between the way the self-conscious mind understands "reality" either through FIRST INTENTION or subsequently through SECOND INTENTION http://dictionary.die.net/first%20intention 5. (Logic) Any mental apprehension of an object. First intention (Logic), a conception of a thing formed by the first or direct application of the mind to the individual object; an idea or image; as, man, stone. Second intention (Logic), a conception generalized from first intuition or apprehension already formed by the mind; an abstract notion; especially, a classified notion, as species, genus, whiteness. Anyway... FIRST INTENTION operates on what Ockham calls "intuition" but nowadays is better understood as "Empirical Examination"... or maybe direct "Factual Experimentation" on something... like dissecting a frog... or putting some bit of matter stuff through a mass specrtometer.... etc. that is to say... the conscious mind considers a single and specific factual "thing"....or maybe even a mental thing, off sorts, like the feeling of an emotion....but mental considerations are mostly of the other sort... below SECOND INTENTION, according to Ockham, is when the conscious mind thinks about all sorts of things in its memory and starts making possible connections of all sorts between them... the more common ones are like one man as distinguished from the generalized notion of all men....Jim for example is different from Tom.... but they are alike in at least some ways... they are both (or all) "men....the distinction between the individual... the species and the genus... etc. but also consider other sorts of "abstract" thinking... like numbers and doing math... etc.... Anyway.... Ockham though this up... this separation between direct empirical experience and abstracted "'thought" constructions.... Pretty fundamental stuff.... and really revolutionary, I think..... but try to tell it to the strict Realists, Idealists or especially the Phenomenologists.... they either don't get it.... or don't WANT to get it.... ignorance... sure is possible even for Nominalists.... sometimes the specific conscious mind either doesn't have the "brains" to come up with the right idea... or sometimes the "thing" just can't be experimented on in the right way to understand it.... Pretty much a state of constant agnostiicism (Don't- Know- Itedness)....But with time and more brains and progress working at it.... more "stuff" if learned about more and more things.... PS... most of the "techie" guys around here don't know crap about this stuff, either....HAR On Apr 20, 10:13 am, the taoist shaman <bryan...@gmail.com> wrote: > reliying on logic can be dangerous , things are unpridictable , to > know is delusion , to not know is ignorance > > nominal9 wrote: > > Hi TS... nice to make your acquaintance....I guess you just don't have > > the interest, now.... but if you ever do, I suggest that you try some > > of the "classical" so-called philosophers... instead of taoist shamans > > or metaphysical quasi-religious sorts , like buddhists or > > tanscendentalists and such as a way toward understanding things... > > folks like Plato ( beginning Idealism) or Aristotle (beginning > > Realism) or Kant (beginning Phenomenology) or W.of Ockham (beginning > > Nominalism) ... then you can go to the ones (other philosophers) who > > took the original threads and carried them on in different > > ways....Anyway, my own very general way of understanding it is that > > there's a basic division in Reality and a thinking being's > > understanding of it... a sort of interplay between the thinking brain > > and the outside world it tries to understand (alog with self- > > consciously understanding itself, of course)... the difference is > > basically one between the Idea and the Thing... otherwise put as the > > Concept and the Reference...Mind and Matter > > > Idealists think that both the Idea and the Thing are subjective, > > entirely dependent on what the self-conscious brain ultimately thinks" > > they (Concept and Reference) are... SUBJECTIVE > > > Realists think that both the Idea and the Thing are objective, > > entirely dependent on what the Thing forces the self-conscious brain > > to understand about them (Concept and Reference)... OBJECTIVE > > > Nominalists think that there's a split in the way the self-conscious > > brain and the outside reality operate....The self -conscious brain > > operates subjectively as to its own Ideas (or Concept) but the Thing > > is completely separated or foreign from the self-conscious brain and > > the Thing (or Reference) is itself objectively controlled by its own > > ways and means of being and operation... SUBJECTIVE / OBJECTIVE > > > Phenomenologists also think that there's a split in the way the self- > > conscious brain and the outside reality operate... but > > Phenomenologists posit that the self-conscious brain operates > > objectively and that the self conscious brain contains a perfect Idea > > (or Concept) of what the Template or "Essence" of all outside reality > > Things should be... the outside reality Things then become mere > > subjective or imperfect manifestations of those perfect > > Essences.....OBJECTIVE / SUBJECTIVE > > > Now, my guess is that as a self-described taoist shaman.... you might > > tend toward the Phenomenological view of ideas and things.... > > > Whereas myself, I am a Nominalist leaning Person when it come to my > > view of ideas and things... > > > Can You see that you and I would tend to think just the opposite at a > > very fundamental level? > > > nominal9 > > > On Apr 13, 5:11 pm, the taoist shaman <bryan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > thats way too much reading , and very confusing , im not familiar w/ > > > proper terms , am i a realist or a dreamer i think was the subject of > > > the reading , but i only skimmed it so , ? all dreamers see themselves > > > as realist or the dream would be dead. i am a defeated dreamer , like > > > the living dead u know ! > > > > nominal9 wrote: > > > > Ever Hear of William of Ockham.... Nominalism... more as an "empirical > > > > way" to think rather that as the opinions that you or anyone should > > > > hold....? > > > >http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ockham/ > > > >http://plato.stanford.edu/search/searcher.py?query=Nominalism > > > >http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nominalism-metaphysics/ > > > >http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/realism/ > > > > > Idealism... Realism.... Phenomenology...Nominalism > > > > > Anyway... there's a lot of them... after a while... others (and after > > > > them me too) started to see "patterns" or threads between them and > > > > thought that most "philosophies" fall under one of the above broad > > > > headings.... and that they differ > > > > logically one heading from the nextr.... anyway, I chose > > > > nominalism.... you may want to consider decidiing or trying to > > > > understand which one you yourself prefer....I was about your age when > > > > I tried to make my choice decision judgment.... > > > > > Mind's Eye.... > > > > THAR be Censors THAR.... > > > > Censors Be folks who thinks they knows it All... when they really > > > > don't know shit... > > > > It's important to know shit, at least. HAR.... > > > > > On Mar 30, 6:54 pm, the taoist shaman <bryan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > how long before all the welth is held by a small group , and what > > > > > happens to the rest of us ? is there a way to stop the storm on the > > > > > horizon , or is there no storm at all ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Epistemology" group. To post to this group, send email to epistemology@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to epistemology+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/epistemology?hl=en.
