Folks, EV's and Hydorgen fuel cell cars are NOT in competition. (except in Toyota's fantasy dreams).. There is no need to get worked up.
EV's are far, far better for local travel and daily commuting (80% of our miles). But in the long run, when all the oil is gone, we will still need the density of chemical fuel for the long-haul interstate travel. And Hydrogen is one technology worth looking at. As everyone points out, Hydrogen makes no sense compared to an EV in *all* aspects for what EV's do best. But we need to continue to explore it for when HYDROGEN might become a byproduct of daily peak grid excess renewable energy capture (no matter how inefficient). EVs and FCV's are completely different applications. And only the media and others who think anything with 4 wheels and a GO pedal should do everything-for-everyone sees them as both very limited and the same... Bob -----Original Message----- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Martin WINLOW via EV Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 5:25 AM To: Mark Abramowitz; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts Mark, Please stop wittering on and actually address some of the points the anti H2 FCV commentators have made here. Principally, please explain how you believe H2 FCVs will work in terms of efficiency Vs (real ie plug-in) EVs? MW On 26 Jun 2014, at 01:52, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: > There are a number of you that think that this is a technology food fight. It's not. Any food fight is one way, and fortunately you're just shouting into your own echo chamber. > > That's a good thing, because despite the ignorance being espoused (much like I hear from the climate change deniers), we are in trouble unless fuel cells are successful. It is just not feasible to meet clean air requirements with just battery electrics. Sorry, but it's true. Anyone with any air quality planning competence will tell you that. And even with fuel cells, there still exists a major challenge. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 25, 2014, at 5:26 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: >> >> Mark, >> Are the laws of Physics different in California? >> It is simply be design and following science that tells us that >> Hydrogen powered cars will never be cost-effective. >> Of course, a state can set up a grande grant-scheme and create an >> artificially unbalanced market that will collapse as soon as the >> money runs out or voters get fed up with the money being poured into >> a fallacy that is not sustainable. >> EVs have proven to be sustainable and efficient, they are subsidized >> via tax breaks to sweeten the deal and ramp up the market faster. But >> the Physics of a BEV tells us that it is efficient and effective. >> Limited, maybe but good enough for about 95% of most people's trips. >> >> The situation is quite different for FCV and that is why even >> organizations that promote Fuel Cell development have pulled out of >> the unsustainable Hydrogen Fuel Cell development. (Except those that >> are more interested in grants than in practical applications and >> progress) >> We will see where Toyota lands, time will tell. >> >> Cor van de Water >> Chief Scientist >> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com >> Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info >> Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark >> Abramowitz via EV >> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 5:17 PM >> To: Peter Eckhoff; Electric Vehicle Discussion List >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen/EV thoughts >> >> Sorry, finger slipped before I was done. >> >> ************** >> >> Sounds like a very old analysis. >> >> Toyota will be selling their cars in California, which should be your >> first clue. BEV have had (and still do) their own challenges, too. >> But it's just not productive to focus on those as have all the >> "negative Nellies" for decades. I've heard over 30 years of "can't, can't, can't" >> about electric drive vehicles of all types. >> >> In the 80's, the agencies were saying that, too. They also said >> "can't, can't, can't" about cleaning up the air any further. So they >> got sued in federal court by a private citizen, who, to make a long >> story short, won. >> >> The air was supposed to get better until the early 90's, and then get >> worse due to growth. Check out the timing of clean air progress since >> the 80's, and also look at when the ZEV mandate was originally adopted. >> >> So, do you want some cheese to go with your w(h)ine? >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Jun 25, 2014, at 3:48 PM, Peter Eckhoff via EV >>>> <ev@lists.evdl.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>> AC Propulsion had a Power Point slide where they compared the >> efficiency of various "fuels". Their standard was an EV with the >> equivalent of 50 MPG. A similar vehicle, powered by hydrogen >> produced from reformatted natural gas and fed into a fuel cell, was >> the equivalent of 30 mpg while hydrogen produced by electrolysis was >> the equivalent of 12 mpg. >>> >>> There a number of technical problems with fuel cells: >>> 1) A fuel cell life expectancy was about 2,000 hours. Since my >> average driving speed is 30 mpg, I would have to replace my fuel cell >> every 60K miles. Therefore, a different fuel cell construction >> technique would have to be used. >>> 2) A pack of battery or electrolytic capacitors or an ICE was needed >> to aid in acceleration. Therefore, a faster way of transferring the >> "proton" through the electrolyte is needed. Think of a proton as a >> person needed to run through air as opposed through water or molasses. >>> 3) The storage of hydrogen to go 300 miles in a Toyota Camry needed >>> 3 >> specially carbon wound tanks where the internal pressures reached 700 >> bar. A bar is 14.7 pounds per square inch. This equates to 5 tons >> per square inch in a "2 ton" vehicle. Catastrophic failures would be >> catastrophic. The hydrogen, therefore, needs to be stored in a >> molecular sponge where the hydrogen freely flows in and out of >> storage without much energy inducements. One real scheme required >> 800 degree Fahrenheit temperatures to release the hydrogen from storage. >>> >>> Given the number of technical problems that need to be solved, I >>> don't >> see hydrogen fuel celled vehicles coming into common use anytime soon. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
