Roland, Thanks for all the detailed information. At the least, it's good to know that the basic idea isn't *completely* nuts.
I think I'm looking for something a bit simpler from a mechanical and engineering perspective -- keep the Mustang's engine and transmission basically unmodified, and use the transmission in neutral to isolate it from the drive system. (Yeah, there'd be some power losses from spinning the back part of the transmission, but I don't think I'm going to worry about that.) Knowing that you were able to successfully use engine vacuum to control motor amps really helps. I'll be going with a modern motor and controller, so it'd be a matter of getting a digital vacuum sensor and connecting it to the controller (with any other inputs) and letting it figure it all out...but, again, that the basic idea is sound is good to know. I'm torn on the whole DC v AC controversy. All else equal, I think I'd much prefer an AC motor (or motors). I know the DC motors do a better job at handling high current at low speeds, which is why they're not off the table. But, at the same time, the NetGain motors are (physically) BIG. That TransWarp 11, for example...the power specs make it seem ideal, but there's just no way I'd be able to fit it in the car, assuming I was going to keep the engine and its transmission. On the other hand, with not much enlarging of the tunnel, a pair of AC-50s would fit between the transmission and the differential, with about a foot of driveshaft still needed. Still, I'll get in touch with George to get his take; thanks for the reference. The spreadsheet you describe should help an awful lot. One thing in my favor, though, is that I'm only looking for a couple dozen or so all-electric miles -- perhaps even just the minimal number of batteries to get to whatever voltage the system is going to run at. That kind of range would take care of the proverbial 80% of trips, and the engine (plus the motor in assist mode) would take care of the rest. Again, in the same spirit as the Volt does things. Thanks again! b& On Jul 18, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Roland <e...@msn.com> wrote: > Hello Ben, > > I have done this method of connecting a motor to a engine back in 1980. The > motor was between the engine and the transmission. The transmission was a GM > TH-400 automatic with a manual valve body, so I can selected the gear > manually right at the sweet spot of a 11 inch motor. > > The motor was only used as a helper to assist the engine in hill climbing > above 33 mph. At 33 mph or below for city driving, the engine disconnected > from the motor using a in and out clutch. The clutch was operated by a > electric 600 lb actuator that engage or disengage the clutch. The engine > could be left idling to run the accessories such as heating, A/C and vacuum > systems. > > Later, I replace the engine vacuum with a hydro boost brake system which runs > off a power steering electric pump, so I now could shut the engine down at > below 33 mph or when the vacuum of the engine went below 15 in.hg. > > Using a GM 252 cu.in. 6 cyclinder engine, I could maintain 34 mpg at or below > 33 mph at city driving. I use a industrial vacuum switch made by Square D > Company that would turn on or off the motor controller. The switch circuit > is in series with the accelerator circuit to the controller. > > Install another 5k accelerator pot preset to a certain rpm. A on dash > transfer switch or using a 3 position 2 pole switch switches the accelerator > circuit to a set rpm using the preset 5k accelerator or back to the 5k > accelerator which is operated by the accelerator peddle. > > The same accelerator peddle could either operated the fuel system of the > engine or the 5k accelerator. If I was only in engine mode and pressing on > the accelerator, the accelerator linkage would move the both the electric > accelerator and the engine fuel flow. > > If the vacuum drop below 15 inches of mercury or in.hgs., the vacuum switch > will turn on the power to the controller and the motor will come up to the > rpm which is set by the swing position on the accelerator pot unit. > > The transmission gearing was change where the first gear was 3.5:1, second > gear is 2.75:1 and third gear is 1.76:1. The differential gear is at 5.57:1 > which is the largest one that will fit in a 10 bolt differential case. > > Now instead of going through all that in above, you could purchase a > TransWarp motor that is design to plug right into a automatic transmission > from NetGain who is the maker of the WarP motors. > > Today I am no longer climbing a long steep hills to work which I use this > drive system to assist the motor. I remove the engine and relocated a > inverter alternator and A/C on the pilot shaft of the motor. Still use the > hydro boost brake system instead of the old vacuum system. > > Instead of using a standard torque converter that had a higher rpm lock up at > 3500 rpm which is ok for a engine with a sweet spot in that range, the 11 > inch motor has a sweet spot at 1800 rpm, so I use a torque converter that has > full lock up at 1700 rpm which is close enough. The sweet spot of a prime > mover is where the horse power and torque are at is maximum. Therefore the > motor ampere will be at the lowest at this point. > > When I design my EV for motor only drive, I contacted George Hamstra at > NetGain to verify the engineering of a EV using a WarP 11 motor. His email > address is: > host...@go-ev.com or host...@comcast.net or ghams...@g0-ev.com > > You send him the type of vehicle you want to use, the estimate weight without > the motor and battery pack, wheel size, tire diameter, transmission gear > ratios in each gear, the estimate average speed and range you want. If you > want to have the vehicle as a hybrid that can work as a full EV only, than > you will need the weight of the vehicle with the engine and its components. > > He will then send you a spread sheet with the size of motor either in > straight EV or using a TransWarP motor set up, the battery pack size for a > TransWarP system or for a EV only battery pack which will be size in ampere > hour and voltage. > > The battery pack for a TransWarP system will be less ah and voltage if you > only attend to use the engine/electric all the time. If you want to have the > engine either idle down or shut down, than the battery pack will have to be > size as for a EV only. > > The spreadsheet will give you a estimated speed, rpm, motor amp, battery amp, > battery voltage, and range of the vehicle. > > The TransWarp motor is normally use with its own controller which interfaces > with a computer in the vehicles with a computer control transmission which > detects the engine load and thus shifts the transmission at the ideal rpm and > load. > > If your vehicle does not have a computer control transmission, you than could > use engine vacuum load sensors like I did back in the 80's. > > Roland > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ben Goren via EV > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2014 9:58 PM > Subject: [EVDL] How crazy am I? > > For quite some time, I've had vague plans of getting an electric vehicle of > some sort. When I put the solar array on my roof a couple years ago, I > intentionally oversized it so I'd have enough extra to charge a car and still > have (roughly, of course) net zero electric use. > > Until recently, the thought has been to get a Karmann Ghia and do a > traditional straight-ahead full electric conversion. However, I have the > chance to buy a 1964 1/2 Mustang in good shape for very little money...and > that's led me on a rather interesting investigation. I came across a Web site > of a guy with a '66 Mustang who replaced his alternator with an electric > motor, and uses it to take some of the load off the internal combustion > engine and get a gas mileage boost. (No perpetual motion; the motor is > battery-powered, with the batteries charged from a wall socket and regen.) > > I know I wouldn't at all be happy with such weak sauce for a system, so I've > done a lot of research and thinking about various options, including many > that I've figured out wouldn't work (bigger motor with Gilmer belt, mounting > the motor to the front of the crankshaft, etc.). I'm now down to a last hope, > but one that I think might actually not be unreasonable. > > I should take a moment and describe what I have in mind for the goal of the > project: something with a driving experience not unlike the Chevy Volt. It > should have an all-electric range of a couple dozen miles or so, and a total > range limited only by gasoline availability. After the batteries run down > enough, it should work like a traditional hybrid, with at least some regen > braking and acceleration assist. And if it winds up being more than merely > "peppy" when running with a full battery charge plus the internal combustion > motor, that's fine as well. > > ...and this would also be a good place to mention that I'm fully aware that > everything is about compromises, and the farther one strays from the beaten > path, the more one must compromise. > > So, with that out of the way, the idea is to keep the internal combustion > motor and its transmission basically unmodified, and to mount the electric > motor inline between the transmission and the differential. > > My hope is that, if I approach this as an high-performance direct-drive > all-electric system with a big enough motor and controller, the "only" > compromises will be cost and the expected complexity of a high-performance > system (cooling, power transfer, that sort of thing). That is, design it as > if I were creating a direct-drive racer (though perhaps an entry-level one > rather than a record-breaker) with the electric motor mounted to the > (appropriately geared) differential, and then connect the ICE's transmission > to the forward end of the electric motor with a shortened drive shaft. > > My biggest question: is this completely crazy? Am I setting myself up for an > expensive white elephant? > > Some of the questions and compromises that I'm already aware that I'm going > to have to face... > > Picking a motor and controller that can handle the load of direct drive: what > do I actually need? I'm kinda drawn to a dual AC-35 setup; would that work, > or do I need even more? Could I get away with less? Again, I don't need > something that'll win races, but I'm well aware that I might need something > race-worthy just to get something that won't melt and / or burn up under > low-speed current loads. > > What kind of gearing am I going to need for the differential? Can I get > something low enough with stock options, or would I need a custom > differential? > > This would also obviously affect the gearing for the internal combustion > engine...again, are there reasonable stock transmission options, or am I > going to need a transmission with custom gear ratios? (The car currently has > a three-speed auto, which I've long since assumed would go.) > > How programmable are the motor controllers? I have in mind using the internal > combustion motor's vacuum pressure rather than foot pedal position to set the > electric motor's power when in hybrid modes, and I'd probably want different > mappings depending on battery charge -- and, of course, there wouldn't be > *any* vacuum in pure electric mode. I pay my bills by doing database > programming. That's a different beast from this type of embedded system, I > know, but I'm not afraid to dive into a new language...assuming it's > something that's possible. > > I live in the Valley of the Sun, so I already know cooling is going to be a > problem. Worse, I have no garage, so the car is going to be outside in the > heat when charging. I'm assuming chill plates will take care of the > controller(s). The car doesn't currently have A/C, so I'm thinking of getting > something that runs purely electrically, and making it oversized, and running > a duct to the batteries and motor (in addition to the cabin). When plugged in > to the wall, I could then run the car's A/C to keep the batteries happy; when > driving, the A/C could provide cooling to the batteries and electric motor > both (with, of course, an increased load on the system and thus worse total > efficiency). Would that kind of cooling be suitable for the motor, or will it > need its own cooling system? I'm not worried about wasting electricity by > running the car's A/C from the wall socket; the panels on my roof already > produce a ridiculously embarrassingly generous surplus. > > I think that pretty much covers all my biggest questions and what I'd > anticipate for the first round of questions from y'all. > > So...am I crazy? > > Thanks, > > b& > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 801 bytes > Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140717/6fdc6e2e/attachment.pgp> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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