On the question, I have an opinion. The only very successful "Real" Hybrid conversions have been those which replace the ICE with a smaller unit and transmission and added an Electric (AC) Motor. The example of the conversion of a Ford F-150 with a small diesel engine and an electric motor and a 50 miles range on electric. The F-150 new sells for $50k and converted sells for $100k. On the other hand, a straight electric conversion with no transmission or ICE and having a 150 miles range will cost less. A typical BEV conversion by a professional is about $12k... Considering the availability of quick charging. I vote for "Pure EV.." By the way if you want to increase the speed of charging by 2X (Half the time) install a second J1772 inlet and "On-board battery charger" so you can plug into two (2) "Charging Stations" at one time, and save half your charging time...
Dennis Lee Miles (EVprofessor) *Founder: **EV Tech. Institute Inc.** (www.evti.org <http://www.evti.org>) * *E-Mail:* *evprofes...@evprofessor.com* <evprofes...@evprofessor.com> *Phone #* *(863) 944-9913* in Central Florida (Office hours: 12:00 Noon to 10:00 pm, New York time) On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > Ben, > > I'll diverge a bit from David's ideas. First, disclaimer: I bought a leaf > and have no hands-on experience. > > One way you could have an ICE and room for EV components is to completely > take out the existing ICE and replace it with something much smaller. Even > though David claims the parallel configuration is more optimal, and I > agree, you could do a series configuration with the electric motor heading > the drive train. You then use the ICE to power the electric motor. > > I imagine several benefits of this: > > 1. smaller ICE - it only needs to be large enough to maintain constant > speed up a long grade. Say you're on a 5% freeway grade and want to > maintain 60mph. That determines your ICE size, considering losses for > elec. generation, etc. You get acceleration from the electric motor; e.g. > the leaf is 80kw and I think the volt is around 100kw; the ICE needs to be > just big enough to provide elec. power for long-average loads. > > 2. more flexibility on how to use the space under the hood. The ICE could > even be in the trunk. > > 3. You can run electric only and never use the ICE for short trips - > depending on your battery size. > > Disadvantages: > > 1. most of the things David relates. > > 2. you might have issues with the engine computer since you probably would > still need it for running the dash accessories, etc. > > Peri > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.evdl.org> > Sent: 19-Jul-14 1:16:45 PM > Subject: Re: [EVDL] How crazy am I? > > Hi Ben, >> >> I'm a little surprised at the light response you've gotten to your >> question. >> I would have thought there'd be more folks here who at least have put some >> thought into homebrewing a hybrid this way, if not done it themselves. >> >> So, even though I'm about the worst person to do so since I'm a EE dropout >> and have never built a hybrid, I'll post a few random ideas about them >> that >> have popped into my head over the years. >> >> First, some thoughts on why or why not. >> >> ICEVs' efficiency has improved immensely from microprocessor engine >> control, >> but it's still pretty abysmal on short trips. For some folks, short trips >> can amount to a lot of driving - take the kids to school, come home, run >> to >> the store, come home, pick the kids up, come home ... repeat to 40 or 50 >> significant digits. That kind of use is also hard on an ICE, because it >> never gets properly warmed up. >> >> OTOH, EVs excel at short trips. They don't need to warm up, they don't >> idle, and many have regen to claw back some kinetic energy normally wasted >> as heat in the brakes.. >> >> For folks who need to make both short and long trips, intuitively the true >> hybrid seems like an ideal compromise. However, the devil is in that >> little >> word, "compromise." It's because you have two vehicles in one. >> >> To stick with conversions here, you're in effect doing a full EV >> conversion, >> but still leaving the engine and all its supporting hardware in place. You >> have to find a place to mount the EV drive components and the battery; but >> unlike a BEV conversion, you don't have nice big chunks of space where the >> ICE and gas tank used to be. So you have a packaging challenge. >> >> Your vehicle also gains a fair bit of weight. And there are other little >> places where you miss out on efficiency. For example, with the exhaust >> still there, you probably can't add a belly pan to smooth out the >> underbody >> aerodynamics, as you could with a BEV. >> >> The result is that your hybrid isn't going to be optimized as either an >> ICEV >> or an EV. It's likely that its EV range will be less than a similar BEV's, >> and its fuel efficiency less than a similar ICEV's. >> >> So after thinking all this over, I've decided that I'm more in favor of >> having multiple vehicles. Each can be optimized for different needs - an >> EV >> for local trips, and an ICEV for long trips, for example. This is a great >> solution where you have two drivers and two cars. With just one driver, I >> guess it depends partly on what it costs to license and insure two >> vehicles >> in your area. >> >> I also really like the station car concept, where you commute using mass >> transit, and lease an EV for daily use between your house and the train >> station. In the best of these proposals, you can also swap your EV for an >> ICEV car or van or truck, when you need that instead (you want to go on >> vacation with the kids, or to fetch a load of lumber). Alas, I don't see >> many of these on the horizon. >> >> Not that I'm trying to talk you out of this project, just presenting some >> things to consider. >> >> Now, again, I'm not really the right person to advise you. But maybe if I >> cast out some ideas here, someone else will pop up and disagree with me >> ;-) >> >> First a little of my somewhat quirky nomenclature. I'm an old guy, so >> "hybrid" still means to me what it meant in 1969. To me, a hybrid is a >> vehicle that can use multiple energy sources. >> >> The cars most folks call hybrids today get all their energy from gasoline. >> Others here disagree with me on this point, which is fine, but I don't >> consider a car like a non-plug-in Prius a true hybrid. In my book, most of >> the factory "hybrids" are really ICEVs with electric superchargers and/or >> sophisticated transmissions. The Prius power splitting device is a really >> clever gadget that amounts to an electomechanical torque converter, for >> example. >> >> So let me use the term "true hybrid" here for the real stuff. >> >> You may already know this, but true hybrids come in two flavors, series >> and >> parallel. A series hybrid has its motor (only) permanently linked to the >> driveline. The ICE drives a generator or alternator that supplements or >> replaces the battery's energy. Diesel-electric locomotives are series >> hybrids. >> >> The downside of the series hybrid is that you lose some efficiency in the >> conversion of mechanical energy to electrical energy. Back in the 1960s >> and >> 1970s, before the days of microprocessor ICE control, you gained ICE >> efficiency by running the ICE at a constant speed and load. This helped to >> make up for the conversion losses. With today's computer engine control, >> that's not true any more. ICEs are now much more efficient over a wider >> range of speeds and loads. So there are fewer situations where a series >> hybrid is apt to give you improved efficiency. >> >> This is where the parallel hybrid comes in. A parallel hybrid can >> mechanically link either the motor or the ICE to the driveline - sometimes >> both. This is the system you're proposing. >> >> In theory, you should get the best of both systems this way, with >> (theoretically) fewer conversion losses. As I said above, though, I don't >> see any way for a hybrid of any flavor to ever be as efficient an EV as a >> pure EV, nor as efficient an ICEV as a pure ICEV. >> >> From what I can see, it's (not surprisingly) any hybrid is tougher and >> more >> expensive than a straight BEV conversion. I think this is especially true >> of a parallel hybrid, because you have somewhat less flexibility in >> positioning components. (One possibly more flexible parallel hybrid >> variant >> is the "through the road" hybrid, where you drive the front wheels with >> one >> fuel and the rear wheels with another.) >> >> To get a final result that's as efficient and as seamless as one where a >> team of automotive engineers designed it (Volt or Plug-in Prius), you >> probably need to have some automotive engineer chops yourself. >> >> But I do think you can build something that will work, to one degree or >> another. After all, hobbyists homebrewed hybrids back in the 1960s and >> 1970s; they can still do it today. That reminds me to mention that maybe >> in >> some ways you might indeed be better off converting a 1960s car than a >> later >> one; certainly you don't have to worry about fooling the body computer >> into >> thinking the engine's running. >> >> Just remember that you have to provide all the patches that you'd have to >> do >> in a BEV - power brake vacuum, power steering pressure, and aircon drive. >> You need a DC:DC converter (or, somewhat cruder and less efficient, a >> motor- >> driven alternator) to provide 12v house power. You need an electric heat >> source for cold weather driving. (It occurs to me that in a homebrew >> hybrid >> you might be able to dispense with some or all of those items burdening >> the >> ICE. Just remember that the energy to run them has to come from >> somewhere.) >> >> You have to fit all this stuff in - and a motor, controller, and battery - >> without emptying out the engine bay or removing the gas tank or exhaust >> system, as is done in BEV conversions. So, again, packaging is more of a >> challenge than with a straight BEV. >> >> Now, if you decide that you just want to make your car a "mild hybrid" - >> where the motor boosts acceleration and recaptures energy when you slow >> down, but the ICE still runs all the time - then that's likely to be >> easier >> and cheaper. >> >> You can even make it a "charge depleting" hybrid. In this case, the motor >> assists the ICE all the time to at least somewhat improve its MPG. When >> the >> battery runs flat, the ICE takes over full motive duties. >> >> I've seen mention of a few "hybrid kits" for light trucks. I think we've >> talked about a them here, so a look in the archives might be worth it. I >> just did a web search for pickup truck hybrid kit" and turned up a couple >> of >> them, but I don't know what their production status is. >> >> In the kits I've seen mentioned, a motor unit goes between the trans and >> the >> driveshaft. As above, it's like an electric supercharger, and it usually >> also captures some kinetic energy when the vehicle slows down. >> >> Whether you could adapt one of these kits for a car, I don't know. >> However, >> it looks like you'd have a better shot at it with an older front engine / >> rear drive car such as yours, than with a modern FWD car where the whole >> business is in the nose. >> >> Kits aside, if you're a good hacker (in the positive sense) with lots of >> spare time, a machine shop and the expertise to use it at your disposal, >> and >> nice deep pockets, what you describe would be a fascinating project. >> >> I hope a few more EVDLers who've done something similar will hop on board >> here, and give you an idea of what they went through. >> >> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA >> EVDL Administrator >> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not >> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my >> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ >> group/NEDRA) >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ > group/NEDRA) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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