Okay, one last bite at the apple. This quote came from a Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water " Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%,[31][32][33] producing 1 kg of hydrogen (which has a specific energy of 143 MJ/kg) requires 50–55 kW⋅h (180–200 MJ) of electricity. At an electricity cost of $0.06/kW·h, as set out in the US Department of Energy hydrogen production targets for 2015,[34] the hydrogen cost is $3/kg."
There is the 80% that Mark has often mentioned. There is the cost of electricity at $0.06/kwhr producing hydrogen using 50 kwh (the lower number in the range). There is this statement from Toyota: "With a tank capacity of five kilos, the MIRAI achieves a range of 500 km." from this link: https://h2.live/en/fuelcell-cars/toyota-mirai/ So what happens when we crunch the numbers? 500 km = 311 miles At full tank capacity, 5 kilos x 50 kwhr = 250 kwhr just to produce 5 kg of hydrogen to go 311 miles. My Tesla Model 3 gets about 4 mile / kwhr on the open road. 4 miles/kwhr x 250 kwhr = 1,000 miles. The cost of electricity is $0.06/kwhr x 250 kwhr = $15.00 FCEV of 311 miles vs BEV range of 1,000 miles on the same amount of electricity and that does not include the energy cost of compression and transportation of hydrogen. When I crunch the numbers for an ICE at $3/gallon and $0.12/kwhr, The cost of electricity goes up to $30 and the amount of gasoline goes to 10 gallons. For a 50 mile/gallon ICE, that's a 500 mile range. On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:58 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > A number of things to correct here: > > - Availability dates: > > Well, a history lesson for you….technically, yes, Honda did start producing > an FCX Clarity in 2008 in Japan, and first available there. However, this was > essentially a run of demo vehicles with a very limited number of people that > were given them to try. Some key influencers got them, like several > well-known actresses. I tried, but was unable to get one. > > The first real availability of a fuel cell car in any number was one offered > by Hyundai. I was at the event giving the first set of keys to a family in > Orange County. I think it was in August of 2014. I have pictures, so can dig > up the exact date if anyone is really interested. > > Several months later, Toyota released its Mirai, in Japan only. (This is all > off the top of my head, so I may be off a little.) In the fall of 2015, the > Mirai was made available in California. I bought one of those in October - it > was one of the first off the line. I also obtained an early Clarity Fuel > cell, the first really by Honda with widespread availability, in March, 2017. > > So no, fuel cells weren’t available to the general public until 2014. > > There was long wait lists, so they didn’t really start hitting the road for > awhile. > > On the BEV side, you’re forgetting the RAV4-EV in 1997, I think, and the EV1 > about that time, too, and Honda also had one. > > Of the EVs you mentioned, really only the Tesla was comparable. I tried > unsuccessfully to get a FIT EV, and that was a great car, but not car able to > the FCEVs. And yes, the EVs outsold the FCEVs in 2012, in part because you > could not buy a FCEV! > > In fact, it you look at sales numbers in California, they were outsold every > year. However, it you compare the adoption curve for the EV with the FCEV, > the curve is the same for the two, just later by seven years. I consider that > remarkable given the limits in infrastructure and other challenges. > > Fueling stations - I hadn’t noticed that you got the number of stations > wrong, only that you said they were closing. But your comment about only five > opening since 2017 is way off. I think that at least five have already opened > just this year. > > Lastly, you equate cost of production with cost to the consumer. Yes, that’s > part of it, but it’s much more complicated than that. That’s for both BEV and > FCEV. For years, cost to Tesla owners for using super chargers was zero. And > right now it is zero for FCEV owners. However, whatever the price has been > and the cost to produce, both prices and costs are dropping. > The important price comparison IMHO is with the price of gasoline and diesel. > > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > > > On Aug 23, 2021, at 8:43 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > > wrote: > > > > FCEV have been available in California since 2008, that's nearly as as > > modern EVs. > > > > The Tesla S came out in 2012, at that time there were at least 8 other EVs > > for sale in the USA. > > Ford Focus EV($39,995), Ford Transit Connect($58,000), Misubishi > > i-Miev($27,900), Honda Fit EV($36,665), Nissan Leaf ($35,200), Wheego LiFe > > ($32,995), Toyota RAV4 EV ($49,800), and the Coda sedan ($37,250) > > Granted most were only available in California and in limited qunatities, > > although most (if not all) out sold FCEVs in California in 2012. > > > > My mistake about the number of H2 fueling stations, I hadn't looked this up > > since 2017, apparently they built 5 new stations since then. > > Of course in that same time frame they installed ~30,000 public charging > > stations. > > They might open 1-2 new H2 stations in the next year or so. They have > > opened ~17,000 public EV charging stations in the last year (During > > COVID!!). > > The rate they are opening public chargin stations is accelerating. At the > > rate they are currently building H2 stations, it will take them 50 years to > > build as many H2 stations as the number of public EV charging stations that > > will open tomorrow. > > Clearly H2 infrastructure is catching up [rolls eyes] > > > > I'll grant you that consumers, in general, don't care about effeciency, but > > they do care about costs. > > If H2 is made using electricity and it requires 4x as much electricity per > > mile, then the cost to the consumer will be at least 4 times as much, plus > > markup. > > Even when using public charging stations, that typically csot 2x-3x as much > > as charging at home, H2 currently cost 2-3x as much per mile, which makes > > it 5-10x as much as charging at home. > > Of course, myself and many others on this list, have solar panels at home > > which makes fuel cost per mile effective zero (my panels paid for > > themselves years ago) > > > > When comparing weight, I ment vehicles with similar capabilities, not > > similar names. > > The closest EV (capability wise) to the Honda Clarity is the Tesla Model 3 > > long range, they have similar passenger volume, simlar cargo volume, > > similar range and similar weight. > > The Tesla weighs 120 lbs more (~3% heavier), 7 miles less EPA range (2%), > > 5% less passenger volume (the tesla has more head room front and back and > > more front leg room, but less rear legroom), and the tesla has 5% more > > cargo volume. > > > > My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key > > > > August 23, 2021 5:52 PM, "Mark Abramowitz via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > > >> A few responses: > >> > >> FCEVs are certainly earlier stage than EVs. Costs are coming down quickly. > >> But to the consumer, > >> FCEVs aren’t necessary more expensive. For the cost of a Tesla S, the only > >> one out when I bought my > >> first FCEV, I could buy at least two FCEVs, taking into account factory > >> and other incentives. > >> > >> Currently, are they more expensive? I don’t know. Taking into account > >> infrastructure, particularly > >> at scale, FCEVs are cheaper. To a consumer, only if they need to put in > >> charging or fueling > >> infrastructure. > >> > >> Cost to operate - you give no costs, only efficiency numbers. fCEV owners > >> pay no nothing for fuel > >> for the first three years. If they lease, nothing. We own one, and lease > >> one. If you own, after the > >> first three years, it’s VERY expensive, though costs are coming down. > >> Maintenance is part of cost > >> to own. Some manufacturers include it, some don’t. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org _______________________________________________ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
