Let me give you sources for the exact numbers for up to date data, rather than rely on my memory.
On station cost and the % amount that the subsidy has dropped, you can either go to the CEC website, and look at the latest funding awards, or you can look at a summary put together by the California Fuel Cell Partnership. CaFCP does regular station update webinars, and the latest was several weeks ago. You can likely download the slide deck from their website (cited by you earlier) for some good summaries, or listen to the webinar for more color. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Aug 24, 2021, at 11:02 PM, Mark Abramowitz <ma...@enviropolicy.com> wrote: > > You are definitely in great shape for at-home charging. Hopefully that is > usually sufficient for you. > > On the hydrogen side, the $16.50 price was correct in 2019. The price is NOT > subsidized by California. With the newer stations and greater competition > they are starting to come down and will come down. But the consumer doesn’t > pay that, with one exception. They pay nothing for three years. The OEMs pick > that up, and offer even more perks to the “pioneers” (things like free car > rentals). Most lease, but if you bought, like I did for my first one, it > becomes expensive after three years. > > The cost of stations *is* subsidized by California (as is EVSE), but the > stations are not costing $2 million. I think the earlier ones did, but costs > are coming down. My guess is the last group of funded stations were $1.25M > per station with four times the fueling bays, and 5-10 times the fuel > capacity of the previous ones. That’s an educated guess, but the recent > numbers are out there. > > The amount of subsidy, in %, has also dropped significantly. I think it’s > only 40%, but don’t trust my memory. > > Your use of cost of electricity per station (which seems *very* cheap) isn’t > the right number to use, as most hydrogen is not produced at the station. If > you are assuming the electricity rates that you may know at charging stations > (a guess on my part), I think that would be wrong anyway, because I think > that EVSE get special rates that electrolyzers don’t get. > > - Mark > > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > >> On Aug 24, 2021, at 10:29 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> Also, since we are talking about the consumers perspective, I think you are >>> making common mistake >>> in equating cost with price. >>> >>> Going back to your comment about cost of charging, that has to be based on >>> price, not cost. At a >>> recent presentation by Electrify America, they said that they charge >>> 31¢/kWh. >> >> Yes I know price and cost are two different things, however, the average >> consumer considers them to be the same thing. >> >> While there are thousands of free charging stations (especially in >> California), including DC fast charge stations, and while there are several >> EV producers that offer free charging for several years with new EVs, we >> will ignore those. >> >> For the charging stations that require payment, I have seen everywhere from >> ~$0.20 to $0.55 per kwh, $0.31 seems to be an average price. I suspect >> competition will start driving the price down in some areas. >> >> Of course the majority of EV owners charge at home, where electricity is >> much cheaper. My solar has already paid for itself twice over, so my >> price/cost is essentially zero. I haven't paid an electric bill in 11 years. >> >> According to: https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill >> The average price of hydrogen in California is $16.51 per kg, which can >> power an FCEV "up to" 75 miles. This price is heavily subsidized by >> California. In addition the state pays on average $1.6 million of the $2 >> million, for each station. >> >> Using the EPA rated range on my Chevy Bolt (the 'up to' range is much >> higher), and using the $0.31 price per kwh, the price to go 75 miles is ~ >> $6.80. >> For the average EV driver in California charging at home, and paying the >> average price for electricity, it would price would be about $4.00. >> Then again, many places in California offer special rates for charging EVs >> where it's even cheaper. >> >> So, the price for charging an EV ranges from infinitely cheaper to, perhaps >> half the cost of Hydrogen. >> >>> And you haven’t said anything about cost of renewables, and isn’t that what >>> we want? >> >> Since it requires 3x-4x as much electricity to power the FCEV, which means >> it requires 3x-4x as much renewable infrastructure to fuel a FCEV. Pretty >> sure I have mentioned this several times already. >> >>> >>> I recently saw a chart of cost of renewables by geographic region in the >>> U.S. that showed the cost >>> of renewables to be available for as low as 2 or 3¢/kWh. >>> >>> Plug Power (disclosure: a client of mine) has said publicly that they >>> believe that they can produce >>> hydrogen within a few years that will be competitive with diesel, given >>> access to 3¢ solar. They >>> are currently building a number of production plants. >> Most hydrogen fuel stations only pay 5-7¢ per kWh, so that won't make a >> significant drop it the cost. >> The cost of fuel is more than just the price of the electricity, under >> normal circumstances it would include recouping the cost of building the >> station, labor costs, repair costs, etc. >> Currently California is paying 80% of the cost of installing the Hydrogen >> fuel station, with local cities, etc. pay most of the remaining. >> I don't believe those costs are being reflected in the sales price of the >> Hydrogen. Since it's not sustainable for the state to continue to subsidize >> the fuel stations much longer, I would expect to see and increase in the >> price of Hydrogen. >> At this point most EV charging stations are being paid for by private >> companies that expect to make a profit, which is why it costs so much to >> charge. >> >> The cost of the fuel centers is 10-20 times as much for Hydrogen, and >> additionally they would require 3-4 times as much renewable infrastructure. >> There is no way Hydrogen will EVER compete with the price of selling >> electricity directly without subsidies. >> _______________________________________________ >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> > > _______________________________________________ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
