Hi Craig Weinberg You said,
" Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you could have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness." That sounds potent, I'm but not sure what it means. Could you expand on it a little ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/16/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-16, 08:29:38 Subject: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complexcomputations ? Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you could have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness. Craig On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 7:50:17 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex computations ? The short answer is that I am proposing that : 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position that consciousness emerges at such a level of complexity. 2) In addition, that while Godel's incompleteness theorem may make such calculations incomplete, it does not make them beyond the range of computabilitlity. Instead, it exposes these halted upward-directed calculations to the possibility of continuing downward-directed platonic reason, the numbers themselves, and plato's geometrical forms. I do not know enough mathematics to be more specific. If you would like a more complete discussion, read below. ======================================================= A MORE COMPLETE ANSWER: Contemporary thinking on consciousness is that it is an "emergent property" of computational complexity among neurons. This raises some questions: A. Is the emergence of consciouness simply a another name for Penrose's condition of non-computability ? http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/presentations/whatisconsciousness.html "Conventional explanations portray consciousness as an emergent property of classical computer-like activities in the brain's neural networks. The prevailing views among scientists in this camp are that 1) patterns of neural network activities correlate with mental states, 2) synchronous network oscillations in thalamus and cerebral cortex temporally bind information, and 3) consciousness emerges as a novel property of computational complexity among neurons." B. Or is there another way to look at this emergence ? Now my understanding of "emergent properties" is that they appear or emerge through looking at a phenomenon at a lower degree of magnification "from above. " Thus sociology is an emergent property of the behavior of many minds. IMHO "from above" means looking downward from Platonia. From a wiser position. Penrose seems to take take two views of Platonia: http://cognet.mit.edu/posters/TUCSON3/Yasue.html One is his belief that there is a realm of non-computability, presumably that of Platonia as experienced. All art and insight comes from such an experience. On the other hand, if I am not mistaken, Penrose seems to believe that the universe is made up of quantum "spin networks", which presumably can model even the most complex entities. He does not seem to deny that the "non-computational" calculations belong to the realm of spin networks. This casts some doubt on his belief in the possibility of non-computability, and may even allow his spin networks, which are presumably complete, to escape intact from Godel's incompleteness limitation. Instead, I propose the following: 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position that consciousness emerges at such a level of complexity. 2) In addition, that while Godel's incompleteness theorem may make such calculations incomplete, it does not make them beyond the range of computabilitlity. Instead, it exposes these halted upward-directed calculations to the possibility of continuing downward-directed platonic reason, the numbers themselves, and plato's geometrical forms. I do not know enough mathematics to be more specific. ================================================================= Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net 10/16/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/teYzjZJLGQoJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
