On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 6:33:15 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: > > Hi Craig Weinberg > > By sense do you mean Firstness, Secondness or Thirdness? > Or all three as a process ? > > Using these as a guide:
(from http://www.helsinki.fi/science/commens/terms/thirdness.html) Firstness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, positively and without reference to anything else. Secondness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, with respect to a second but regardless of any third. Thirdness is the mode of being of that which is such as it is, in bringing a second and third into relation to each other. I would say that sense is primordial Sixthness. The meta juxaposition of all three modalities. Sense is the totality within which Firstness, Secondness, and Thirdness are defined and directly experienced. Fourthness could be thought of as the change that thirdness brings to firstness and Fifthness could be perhaps the juxtaposition of that change with it's canonical conjugate in Secondness. There is no Firstness without Sixthness. In quantitative terms, the universe doesn't begin with 0 or 1, it 'begins' with the instantaneous/perpetual division of 1 into infinite fractions. Timespace is only real at the periphery/circumference of that division. Craig > Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net <javascript:> > 10/17/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Craig Weinberg > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-10-16, 14:11:14 > Subject: Re: Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly > complexcomputations ? > > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:54:10 AM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > Computation is an overly simplified emergent property of sense. If you > could > > have computation without sense, then there would be no consciousness. > > Craig > > > Could you provide a link where you more fully explain what sense is > and how it relates to comp and consciousness? You probably already > have. But I missed it. > > > This post http://s33light.org/post/24159233874 talks about why I use the > word sense. I am saying that the only thing that the universe can be > reduced to which is irreducible is sense, and by that I really mean sense > in every sense, but in particular sensation, intuition, subjective feeling, > pattern recognition, and categorization or discernment. > > Craig > > > Richard > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 7:50:17 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: > >> > >> Is consciousness just an emergent property of overly complex > computations > >> ? > >> > >> The short answer is that I am proposing that : > >> > >> 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position > >> that consciousness emerges at such a level of complexity. > >> > >> 2) In addition, that while Godel's incompleteness theorem may make > >> such calculations incomplete, it does not make them beyond the > >> range of computabilitlity. Instead, it exposes these halted > >> upward-directed > >> calculations to the possibility of continuing downward-directed > platonic > >> reason, > >> the numbers themselves, and plato's geometrical forms. I do not know > >> enough > >> mathematics to be more specific. > >> > >> If you would like a more complete discussion, read below. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ======================================================= > >> A MORE COMPLETE ANSWER: > >> Contemporary thinking on consciousness is that it is an "emergent > >> property" > >> of computational complexity among neurons. This raises some questions: > > >> > >> A. Is the emergence of consciouness simply a another name for Penrose's > > >> condition of non-computability ? > >> > >> > http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/presentations/whatisconsciousness.html > >> > >> "Conventional explanations portray consciousness as an emergent > property > >> of classical > >> computer-like activities in the brain's neural networks. > >> The prevailing views among scientists in this camp are that > >> > >> 1) patterns of neural network activities correlate with mental states, > > >> 2) synchronous network oscillations in thalamus and cerebral cortex > >> temporally bind information, > >> and > >> 3) consciousness emerges as a novel property of computational > complexity > >> among neurons." > >> > >> > >> > >> B. Or is there another way to look at this emergence ? > >> > >> Now my understanding of "emergent properties" is that they appear or > >> emerge through looking at a phenomenon > >> at a lower degree of magnification "from above. " Thus sociology is an > > >> emergent property of > >> the behavior of many minds. > >> > >> IMHO "from above" means looking downward from Platonia. From a wiser > >> position. > >> > >> Penrose seems to take take two views of Platonia: > >> > >> http://cognet.mit.edu/posters/TUCSON3/Yasue.html > >> > >> One is his belief that there is a realm of non-computability, > presumably > >> that of Platonia as experienced. > >> All art and insight comes from such an experience. > >> > >> On the other hand, if I am not mistaken, Penrose seems to believe that > the > >> universe is made up of > >> quantum "spin networks", which presumably can model even the most > complex > >> entities. > >> He does not seem to deny that the "non-computational" calculations > belong > >> to the realm > >> of spin networks. > >> > >> This casts some doubt on his belief in the possibility of > >> non-computability, > >> and may even allow his spin networks, which are presumably complete, > >> to escape intact from Godel's incompleteness limitation. > >> > >> Instead, I propose the following: > >> > >> 1) Penrose's noncomputability position is equivalent to the position > >> that consciousness emerges at such a level of complexity. > >> > >> 2) In addition, that while Godel's incompleteness theorem may make > >> such calculations incomplete, it does not make them beyond the > >> range of computabilitlity. Instead, it exposes these halted > >> upward-directed > >> calculations to the possibility of continuing downward-directed > platonic > >> reason, > >> the numbers themselves, and plato's geometrical forms. I do not know > >> enough > >> mathematics to be more specific. > >> ================================================================= > >> > >> > >> > >> Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net > >> 10/16/2012 > >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/teYzjZJLGQoJ. > > > > To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > everything-li...@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/c4XDACUXthAJ. > To post to this group, send email to > everyth...@googlegroups.com<javascript:>. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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