On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 11:35:00 AM UTC-4, Tom Bayley wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 2:39:40 PM UTC, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, March 20, 2013 12:44:02 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>> > Correlation, even 100% correlation, does not equal causation. >>> >>> >>> BULLSHIT! If when X is changed there is ALWAYS a change in Y in the same >>> direction, and when Y changes you can ALWAYS find a change in X that >>> preceded it, then X causes Y. IT'S WHAT THE WORD "CAUSES" MEANS! >>> >> >> Two flowers bloom at sunrise every day without fail. Does one cause the >> other to bloom? Do the flowers cause the sun to rise? >> >> Instead of two flowers, think of one flower that blooms at sunrise, and >> something else that happens at sunrise that is completely unlike a flower - >> like a particular song plays. If we apply this metaphorically to >> consciousness, then the flower and the music are two perpendicular, >> correlated expressions of the sunrise. Our subjective consciousness is the >> music, and it is part of a history of music going back to the dawn of time, >> and the flower is what the music looks like from the outside, and it has a >> separate history of plants going back to the dawn of botany or matter. >> >> Hello, sorry to want to get involved ;-) I always hear an audible click > very shortly after I see the light switch on. There is no direct causation, > but the two phenomena are both related via the action of my finger, which > if I am technologically unsophisticated may not be obvious (think of cargo > cults.) Are you suggesting it might be a similar mistake to say that neural > events cause qualia? i.e. there could be an as yet hidden cause for both. >
I would say that cause is not even an appropriate term to address it. Cause is a function of temporal sequence, memory, and inference, all of which supervene on awareness to begin with. Neural events coincide with qualia simultaneously. There is no converting homunculus or Cartesian theater where any causal transduction takes place. The neurology is the public view, the qualia is the private view. The human qualities of our our consciousness can be said to be caused by human history going back to the beginning of Homo Sapiens, and that history correlates to the structures of the human nervous system, but there is no cause and effect relation - qualia is not generate by anything, everything already is nothing but qualia. Neurological events can of course have an effect on our personal *access* to qualia. Craig > > >>> > Two unrelated systems can both be related to a third, >>>> >>> >>> If they are both related to the same thing then they are not unrelated. >>> >> >> They can be unrelated except for their mutual relation to the third thing >> though, obviously. >> >> Craig >> >> >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
