On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 3:18:52 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 08 Oct 2013, at 20:12, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 8, 2013 12:34:57 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 08 Oct 2013, at 17:59, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> > >> >> Why isn't computationalism the consequence of quanta though? >> >> >> Human computationalism does. >> >> But I want the simplest conceptual theory, and integers are easier to >> define than human integers. >> > > I'm not sure how that relates to computationalism being something other > than quanta. Humans are easier to define to themselves than integers. A > baby can be themselves for years before counting to 10. > > > Phenomenologically? Yes. > Fundamentally? That does not follow. It took a long time before > discovering the Higgs-Englert-Brout Boson. >
It doesn't have to follow, but it can be a clue. The Higgs is a particular type of elementary phenomenon which is not accessible to us directly. That would not be the case with Comp if we were in fact using only computation. If our world was composed on every level by computation alone, it wouldn't make much sense for people to have to learn to count integers only after years of aesthetic saturation. > > > > > >> >> >> >> >> >> What can be computed other than quantities? >> >> >> Quantities are easily computed by stopping machines, but most machines >> does not stop, and when they introspect, the theory explains why they get >> troubled by consciousness, qualia, etc. Those qualia are not really >> computed, they are part of non computable truth, but which still bear on >> machines or machine's perspective. >> > > Then you still have an explanatory gap. > > > But that is a good point for comp, as it explains why there is a gap, and > it imposes on it a precise mathematical structure. > But there's nothing on the other side of the gap from the comp view. You're still just finding a gap in comp that comp says is supposed to be there and then presuming that the entire universe other than comp must fit in there. If there is nothing within comp to specifically indicate color or flavor or kinesthetic sensations, or even the lines and shapes of geometry, then I don't see how comp can claim to be a theory that relates to consciousness. > > > How can anything which is non-computable bear on the computation of an > ideal machine? > > > That is the whole subject of en entire field: recursion theory, or > theoretical computer science. > Ok, so what is an example of something that specifically bridges a kind of computation with something personal that comp claims to produce? > > > > > What connects the qualia to the quanta, and why isn't the qualia just > quantitative summaries of quanta? > > > Qualia are not connected to quanta. > Then what is even the point of Comp? To me quanta = all that relates to quantity and certain measurement. If they are not connected to quanta then a machine that is made of quanta can't possibly produce qualia that has no connection to it. That's no better than Descartes. > Quanta are appearances in the qualia theory, and they are not > quantitative, they are lived at the first person plural views. > Quanta aren't quantitative? > > > >> If Arithmetic truth is full of non nameable things, what nameable things >> does it also contain, >> >> >> The numbers, the recursive properties, the recursively enumarable >> properties, the Sigma_i truth, well a lot of things. >> You have the recursive (the simplest in our comp setting), then the >> recursively enumerable (the universal machines, notably), then a whole >> hierarchy of non computable, but still nameable set of numbers, or >> machine's properties, >> > > You say they are nameable, but I don't believe you. It is not as if a > number would ever need to go by some other name. Why not refer to it by its > precise coordinate within Arithmetic Truth? > > > Because it is independent of the choice of the computational base, like > volume in geometry. If you can name something with fortran, then you can > name it with numbers, combinators, etc. Nameability is "machine > independent", like the modal logics G, G*, Z, etc; > What you are calling names should be made of binary numbers though. I'm asking why binary numbers should ever need any non-binary, non-digtial, non-quantitative names. > > > > > >> then you got the non nameable properties, like true (for number >> relations) but very plausibly, things like consciousness, persons, etc. >> Some of those non nameable things can still be studied by machines, >> through assumptions, and approximations. >> Above that you have the truth that you cannot even approximated, etc. >> Arithmetical truth is big, *very* big. >> > > Big, sure, but that's exactly why it needs no names at all. > > > It is worst than that. Many things cannot have a name. > what can they have? > > > Each feature and meta-feature of Arithmetic truth can only be found at its > own address. What point would there be in adding a fictional label on > something that is pervasively and factually true? > > > In science it is not a matter of decision, but of verifiable facts. > That's what I am saying, what is the point of adding a fictional name to a fact that is verifiable within Arithmetic truth? > > > > > >> and what or who is naming them? >> >> >> The machines. (in the comp setting, despite the machines theology does >> refer to higher non-machine entities capable of naming things. That's the >> case for the first order logical G* (which I note usually qG*, this one >> needs more than arithmetical truth, but it is normal as it describes an >> intensional (modal) views by a sort of God (Truth) about the machine. here >> the miracle is that its zero order logical (propositional) part is >> decidable. >> > > I don't think that names and machines are compatible in any way. > Programmers of machines might use names, but once compiled, all high level > terms are crushed into the digital sand that the machine can digest. No > trace of proprietary intent remains. > > > Not at all. The whole point is that such proprietary are invariant for the > high or low level implementations. > Then why would we have to compile high level programs into low level machine code? > > > > > >> >> >> Otherwise wouldn't it be tautological to say that it is full of non >> nameable things, as it would be to say that water is full of non dry things. >> >> >> ? (here you stretch an analogy to far, I think). >> > > Could be, but I don't know until I hear the counter-argument. > > > (Stretched) analogy are immune to argumentation. > I don't know of any way that could not sound like a dodge to me. > > > > > >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> It seems to me that we can use arithmetic truth to locate a number >>> within the infinity of computable realtions, but any 'naming' is only our >>> own attempt to attach a proprietary first person sense to that which is >>> irreducibly generic and nameless. The thing about qualia is not that it is >>> non-nameable, it is the specific aesthetic presence that is manifested. >>> Names are just qualia of mental association - a rose by any other name, >>> etc. >>> >>> >>> I think this could be made more precise by taking "our" in the Löbian >>> sense. >>> >> >> If quanta is Löbian qualia, why would it need any non-quantitative names? >> >> >> ? (to fuzzy question, sorry, try to make this more clear perhaps). >> > > You said earlier that quanta is Löbian qualia, and then you are saying > above that naming is one of the things that Löbians (persons? machines?) > do, so I am asking why don't they just use quanta instead of > non-quantitative qualia? > > > Because, by the logical gaps Z/Z*, X/X* etc. (inherited from G/G*) it is > shown that Löbian numbers/machines/person are confronted with them. They > can names some things, and they cannot name other things. It is a theorem > in their self-reference logics. It is "basic" machine's theology or > psychology. > It sounds like you're just saying "because that's how they work." Craig > > Bruno > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. 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