On 29 Oct 2013, at 14:22, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com
> wrote:
I know a single concept of people....
I wonder what´s the new concept of people, different from the one I
manage
(either philosophical or not)
Have they rights?
This is a very good question which, in fact, serves well to illustrate
how the concept of "people" is difficult and fluid.
I would define a person any entity which behaves in a way which makes
me think there is some first person view.
Protozoa and perhaps even bacteria, gives me already that felling. I
would say that a person is any entity which makes love and reproduce,
like most bacteria.
Past issues:
- Are other races people, do they have right?
I guess bacteria benefits from some natural bacteria right, but nature
is known to be cruel in that respect. probably a good thing, because
the universe would be quickly full of amoeba is they all manage to
survive all their duplications ...
Of course bacteria does not need human right in the usual sense of the
expression.
Depressingly, until the
middle of the XX century there was no general consensus that all human
beings are people with equal rights.
That's a very recent idea, indeed.
Current issues:
- Are animals people to some degree?
With my definition above, they are people. We just don't notice,
except children. Of course you can call that a pathetic fallacy. It is
still better to attribute too much personhood than to few, ethically.
Do they have rights? Many modern
societies say yes, and consider some mistreatments of animals to be a
crime;
All persons deserve respect, even when we eat them.
- Are corporations people? American law says yes, and that they have
rights like free speech;
In my opinion, this is not in the interest of the human individual and
it is a threat to the human right.
But it is in the interest of some possible multi-humans higher level
being.
Future issues:
- Are aliens people?
I would say by definition, unless you call a meteor an alien.
Should they have equal rights?
Does Alien have the right to eat us? (in case they find us tasty)
Does that depend
on their level of civilisational development? If yes, where to draw
the line?
- Are robots people?
If they run the right self-referentially correct loop.
This is something the humans will do with caution, as you get quickly
machines fighting for social security and rights.
- Are computer emulations of the minds of dead people people?
That's the comp assumption.
Crazy issues:
- Are spirits and demons people? Islamic law says yes.
Is it so crazy? After all some non Turing emulable arithmetical
relations are Löbian too. Second order arithmetic is not Turing
emulable, and is Löbian, with a "divine" "provability" predicate (to
use Boolos terming!). Normally, they have even the same fundamental
physics.
Arithmetic is full of lives, dreams, but there is still place for
spirit and daemon.
Now, if mathematicians can be said to communicate with them, it is not
in any sense compatible with giving them right. They might have
possible role in making those right even possible, like arithmetical
truth (which is itself such entities, despite not being Löbian at all)
makes person and relative realties possible.
Of course Nietzsche himself had this to say:
"Man is a rope, tied between beast and overman -- a rope over an
abyss...
What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end: what can
be loved in man is that he is an overture and a going under..."
So it doesn't sound that he was convinced that personhood was so clear
cut either. Note that in the original German the mensch Übermensch has
a meaning closer to "person" then "man". So I actually made a mistake,
Nietzsche's concept seems compatible with Bruno's and maybe they
wouldn't disagree to much on this.
Yes.
To be sure, I don't like the idea of Übermensch.
At least we know there is no Übermachine.
There is just a universal baby god (the universal person/machine)
which lost himself in the infinite and infinitely tricky garden
provided by his Mom Goddess (Arithmetical truth).
Bruno
Also wikipedia, for what it's worth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person
Telmo.
2013/10/29 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com
>
wrote:
Cells are people, perhaps. Dendrites and molecules lack self-
referential
means, like quarks.
Then cows are Nietzchian superpeople. That disqualifies half of mi
fridge's
food.
You can't just mix two unrelated philosophical concepts that
happen to
share the same string of characters and call it an argument.
2013/10/29 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
On 28 Oct 2013, at 19:55, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Monday, October 28, 2013 1:53:02 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
I refer you to my rare posts where I suggest that the level is
the
molecular level, and should include the glial cells, which in my
opinion
(from diverse reading) handle to information.
I also defend the idea that an amoeba, by being unicellular,
can be
seen
as a cell being simultaneously a digestive cell, a muscular
cells, a
liver
cell, a kidney cell, a bone cell, and a brain cell.
Amoebas are not completely stupid and deserve respects, and so
are any
each of our own cells, despite those cells in multicellular
organism
have
lost a bit of their freedom and universality to cooperate in
what is
ourself.
Again, the bold quote illustrates comp, and the fact that the
level is
lower than some thought.
Also with comp, consciousness is NOT a product of the mind.
that's
still
too much an aristotelian way to express the "identity" thesis.
Consciousness
is not physical, it is the mental state of person associated to
machines,
when those person develop *some* true belief.
So if dendrites and molecules are people, why not quarks and
numbers?
Cells are people, perhaps. Dendrites and molecules lack
self-referential
means, like quarks.
relative numbers does not lack them, but as 3p pure notion, are
not
people, but people can emerge from them and their cognitive
abilities.
Bruno
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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