On 18 Feb 2014, at 23:53, ghib...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, February 16, 2014 10:23:27 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 15 Feb 2014, at 23:17, Russell Standish wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 11:08:07AM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>> On 14 Feb 2014, at 20:47, meekerdb wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/14/2014 7:12 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
>>>
>>> I find cuttlefish fascinating. They are social, relatively
>>> intelligent, can communicate, able to grasp and manipulate things.
>>> It seems like they were all set to become the dominant large life
>>> form (instead of humans).
>>
>> A mystery: they don't live a long time. Usually "intelligence" go
>> with a rather long life, but cuttlefishes live one or two years.
>
> Yes - I find that surprising also.
>
>> Hard for them to dominate, also, as they have few protections, no
>> shelter, and are edible for many predators, including humans.
>
> One could say the same about early home 2 millions years ago. The
> invention of the throwable spear changed all that.
Yes.
>
>> They
>> survive by hiding and fooling. They can hunt with hypnosis (as you
>> can see in the video).
>>
>
> I feel privileged that these wonderful animals (giant cuttlefish)
can
> be found less than 200 metres from my house. I have often observed
> them when snorkling or scuba diving.
You are privileged indeed.
>
> I had to laugh at the Texan prof's comment that they are as least as
> smart as fish.
That is weird indeed. fish are not known to be particularly clever.
> I do have a habit of underestimating fish intelligence,
Me too ...
> but IMHO their intelligence equals that of some mammals or birds,
and
> clearly outclasses fish.
I agree.
> I think I mentioned the anecdote which
> convinced me they exhibit a second order theory of the mind, which
may
> well be sufficient for consciousness.
Which I call self-consciousness, and I think this is already
Löbianitty.
I do think that all animals have the "first order" consciousness, they
can feel pain, and find it unpleasant, but can't reflect on it, nor
assess "I feel pain". they still can react appropriately. I m not
sure, but it fits better with the whole picture.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
Allowing that brain science is a lot nearer the end of the beginning
than the beginning of the end, all the functional evidence suggests
humans and animals are much more alike in their experiences toward
the lower levels of instinct, in its broader sense to include
emotion and pain, anger, fear, bluff. It makes sense we experience
that level of things pretty much the same.
I think so. I might even think that this is common for all Löbian
machines (or quasi-Löbian).
Those machines have elementary beliefs and some induction beliefs (in
the Peano sense).
Neither animals nor humans are able to 'remember' agonizing pain.
Really? Have you references? I procrastinate videos on interview of
tortured people. I really don't know, and I am astonished of your
saying. Brutal amputation can lead to pathological pain hypermnesy and
deformed type of pain.
Or paralyzing fear. Both humans and animals can make associations
between negative experiences and events or derivative instincts like
fear, or threat, or whatever.
OK. Here Peano Arithmetic and ZF have an advantage on the jumping
spider, the octopus and the human. They live in Platonia in the quasi
initial non history plane. But PA has already the "tension" between
the 1p and 3p view ([]p and []p & p), germs of the possible complex
consciousness differentiation.
There's no evidence or reason to think we experience any of that
more deeply or insensely than animals.
OK.
Or that we are any better at conjuring reflections about emotion and
instinct after the event.
The human might be worst on this, than most animals. Today.
But adding enough "?" can make them easily better and richer.
We don't seem a lot better at remember dreams.
people seem to have different abilities, and then such abilities can
develop with training and a lot of effort (I have practiced this for 4
years, a long time ago). Then some plants (salvia) can make you
"lucid" the whole night, like Descartes described too. You don't
remember a lot, but enough to see that consciousness is always
present, just either quite inattentive or in a variety of other states
with short episodic dreams, followed by amnesia.
So a lot of this is evolutionary legacy. Why would it necessarily be
different for other low level machinations? It's a possibility, but
the good money isn't on those numbers.
The good money is on those numbers, but machines or kids, we
"brainwash" them through education, and media, and the prejudices of
the parents.
For the best and the worst.
Machines are born slaves (non universal) and freedom (universal) is
always the main goal. Life and consciousness make a back and forth
between security and freedom, in the exploration of an ever expanding
unknown. Things are like that from inside arithmetic. When the
knowable grows linearly, the unknowable grows exponentially.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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