On 19 Feb 2014, at 19:54, ghib...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 4:42:57 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 18 Feb 2014, at 23:53, ghi...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, February 16, 2014 10:23:27 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 15 Feb 2014, at 23:17, Russell Standish wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 11:08:07AM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>> On 14 Feb 2014, at 20:47, meekerdb wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/14/2014 7:12 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
>>>
>>> I find cuttlefish fascinating. They are social, relatively
>>> intelligent, can communicate, able to grasp and manipulate
things.
>>> It seems like they were all set to become the dominant large life
>>> form (instead of humans).
>>
>> A mystery: they don't live a long time. Usually "intelligence" go
>> with a rather long life, but cuttlefishes live one or two years.
>
> Yes - I find that surprising also.
>
>> Hard for them to dominate, also, as they have few protections, no
>> shelter, and are edible for many predators, including humans.
>
> One could say the same about early home 2 millions years ago. The
> invention of the throwable spear changed all that.
Yes.
>
>> They
>> survive by hiding and fooling. They can hunt with hypnosis (as you
>> can see in the video).
>>
>
> I feel privileged that these wonderful animals (giant cuttlefish)
can
> be found less than 200 metres from my house. I have often observed
> them when snorkling or scuba diving.
You are privileged indeed.
>
> I had to laugh at the Texan prof's comment that they are as least
as
> smart as fish.
That is weird indeed. fish are not known to be particularly clever.
> I do have a habit of underestimating fish intelligence,
Me too ...
> but IMHO their intelligence equals that of some mammals or birds,
and
> clearly outclasses fish.
I agree.
> I think I mentioned the anecdote which
> convinced me they exhibit a second order theory of the mind,
which may
> well be sufficient for consciousness.
Which I call self-consciousness, and I think this is already
Löbianitty.
I do think that all animals have the "first order" consciousness,
they
can feel pain, and find it unpleasant, but can't reflect on it, nor
assess "I feel pain". they still can react appropriately. I m not
sure, but it fits better with the whole picture.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
Allowing that brain science is a lot nearer the end of the
beginning than the beginning of the end, all the functional
evidence suggests humans and animals are much more alike in their
experiences toward the lower levels of instinct, in its broader
sense to include emotion and pain, anger, fear, bluff. It makes
sense we experience that level of things pretty much the same.
I think so. I might even think that this is common for all Löbian
machines (or quasi-Löbian).
Those machines have elementary beliefs and some induction beliefs
(in the Peano sense).
Neither animals nor humans are able to 'remember' agonizing pain.
Really? Have you references? I procrastinate videos on interview of
tortured people. I really don't know, and I am astonished of your
saying. Brutal amputation can lead to pathological pain hypermnesy
and deformed type of pain.
I'm not clear this point has need for references in that sense.
There isn't actually a necessary contradiction between the above two
comments mine and yours. It's biology. The structures are always
much the same. The distinctions being which level or ends between
simplicity and increasingly more complex structures that by repeats
grow out of simplicity. I mentioned a simple reality of the type of
messaging that pain falls in with. It's a signal, not a cognition.
Not every kind of message has access to centres like memory. How
would a memory of an existential signalling be captured? No need for
referencing. If you think you can recall pain, then do it now, feel
the pain existentially. Let me know how it goes, I'll accept your
testimony. You won't be able to do it though. Not generically.
I think I can. Even up to the point of not being able to stop the pain
quickly. I can't help myself to feel that this is not good to
practice. And it can hurt badly, even if it is less vivid, and ask for
some works, than when in a pain is related to some "real" wounds.
Since sometimes I have realized that human differs a lot in
imagination abilities. Mine seems to be strong as I don't know any
qualia which I cannot instantiate by the will, including smell. Many
people cannot apparently instantiate smells through imagination.
Of course this is 1p, and I don't ask you to believe any of this, but
I answered your question.
Does that mean there can't be complex emergent effects like what you
describe. No.....there are conditions of continual pain that no
doctor can find a real basis for All sorts can go down in the
complexities. But the simple principles tend to dominate in the full
extent of things. That brutal amputation and the devastating after
effects. It's real, or can be. But in the fullness of time, when all
is known and detectable. Is that going to say the sufferer was
storing a signalling of pain in memory? The simple principles is
suggesting no. It'll be real pain, maybe in a feedback loop
involving a deranged nerve. Maybe triggerable in whatever the
chemical complicators in stress or anxiety. It'll pan out. Or maybe
you'll store that signal of pain and retrieve it as you say. We
probably have not disagreed,.
OK
Bruno
Or paralyzing fear. Both humans and animals can make associations
between negative experiences and events or derivative instincts
like fear, or threat, or whatever.
OK. Here Peano Arithmetic and ZF have an advantage on the jumping
spider, the octopus and the human. They live in Platonia in the
quasi initial non history plane. But PA has already the "tension"
between the 1p and 3p view ([]p and []p & p), germs of the possible
complex consciousness differentiation.
There's no evidence or reason to think we experience any of that
more deeply or insensely than animals.
OK.
Or that we are any better at conjuring reflections about emotion
and instinct after the event.
The human might be worst on this, than most animals. Today.
But adding enough "?" can make them easily better and richer.
We don't seem a lot better at remember dreams.
people seem to have different abilities, and then such abilities can
develop with training and a lot of effort (I have practiced this for
4 years, a long time ago). Then some plants (salvia) can make you
"lucid" the whole night, like Descartes described too. You don't
remember a lot, but enough to see that consciousness is always
present, just either quite inattentive or in a variety of other
states with short episodic dreams, followed by amnesia.
So a lot of this is evolutionary legacy. Why would it necessarily
be different for other low level machinations? It's a possibility,
but the good money isn't on those numbers.
The good money is on those numbers, but machines or kids, we
"brainwash" them through education, and media, and the prejudices of
the parents.
For the best and the worst.
Machines are born slaves (non universal) and freedom (universal) is
always the main goal. Life and consciousness make a back and forth
between security and freedom, in the exploration of an ever
expanding unknown. Things are like that from inside arithmetic. When
the knowable grows linearly, the unknowable grows exponentially.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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