On 28 Mar 2014, at 02:54, John Mikes wrote:
Bruno: of course you cannot even fathom a 'Q-state' with so much
unknow/able/n in everything we KNOW about, or don't even KNOW
ABOUT. . Reproduce? No chance. You can work only on whatever is
known today. (And that, too, is questionable in your (my?) science)
I would say that we can work only from what we believe or assume
today, and might indeed be shown wrong tomorrow.
Assume and suppose are inadequate.
How can I understand that without assuming that by using the word
"and" you assume the same meaning than me, actually that both "assume"
and "suppose" are inadequate.
But then your statement is self-defeating.
On the contrary, science works by making assumptions all the times.
Why not?
Even "the best possibility" is hollow..
Cloning would use all those infinite details we miss in repro.
Everything is an unidentified term, unless you add "everything OF
WHAT" (restricted), which of course makes the term laughable
(everything of something not everything)..
Your proclaimed fellow agnosticism must agree to that I suppose.
You don't seem agnostic on the question if there is really something
more that numbers (in company of their laws).
I am agnostic, on comp, and thus on its consequences too.
I just offer an argument showing that if comp is true, then it makes
no sense to say that there is more than arithmetic. No machine can
conceived something more complex than arithmetic "seen" from inside.
That's beyond mathematics.
Bruno
John Mikes
On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Richard Ruquist <yann...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 11:17 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 24 Mar 2014, at 20:18, Richard Ruquist wrote:
Bruno,
How does cloning differ from "asking the doctor".
Forgive me but it seems that you are being contradictory-
just to indicate that this is an important question.
No problem: I love all questions :)
The non cloning theorem says that you cannot copy exactly a *quantum
state*. Note that you can still teleport it quantum mechanically,
but you have to detsroy "the original".
But nobody pretends that your mind needs your exact quantum state.
It needs only a substitution level, which is usually estimate to be
at a quite higher level than the quantum state.
You cannot clone this or that exemplary of "Alice in Wonderland",
but it is easy to make a copy of its classical information content,
which is way above the quantum level defining the "material" book.
Bruno, My concern is at what level is consciousness. I suspect that
if it is below the substitution level, then consciousness will not
be transmitted
All the same with this present post. Once send it will be
multiplied, without any information loss, to all participant to this
forum.
Right, except that I suspect that the post is not conscious.
Now, I should add that the consequence of comp remains correct, even
if our substitution level is sub quantum, and asks for the total
quantum state. WHY? because the consequences depends only on step 7,
which does not use any duplication of any states, but only their
multi-preparation, which is done automatically by the arithmetical
reality, or the Universal Dovetailer. Only the pedagogical step 1-6
are no more available except ... as pedagogical steps. But a
majority of people believe that the brain, although plausibly a
quantum object, works at a much higher level, so I don't insist so
much on this, given that we get a non-cloning result directly by comp.
OK?
Right, and I suspect that consciousness could be duplicated
if the consciousness level is at or above the substitution level.
Seems we have several levels:
the particle and quantum levels, and the consciousness and the
substitution level, The conscious level is fixed by nature.
The substitution level seems to be fixed by mathematics.
They both may be the same: nature and math, that is.
Richard
Bruno
Richard
On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 24 Mar 2014, at 00:43, Joseph Knight wrote:
Bruno, I've seen you say before that COMP (in addition to the
first-person indeterminacy) also predicts the no-cloning theorem.
Could you explain how?
In a purely qualitative way, that should be easy, if you succeed in
staying naive-cold with the UDA up to step 7. Imagine that I decide
to copy a piece of matter.
Unlike information, where things are crisp at some point, it is
already not clear what is the relevant level, so an exact copy
should be defined by something like a non distinguishability with
respect to some set of instruments.
Anyway, at some point, in your zooming toward finer and finer
description of the piece of matter, you arrive at your own
substitution level. At that level, the matter is no more made of
subpart, but is undetermined, as you comp state is no more
dependent of such details, and *you* diffuse on all the possible
"subcomputations", where, by the FPI, all universal machines are
somehow in competition (by the invariance of the 1p for the "length
of the proof of the sigma_1 proposition, or computations). How
could you clone that? We cannot clone an object, because an object
is not a real thing, but an information pattern, which becomes
necessarily fuzzy when we look at it below the substitution level.
What we can see there is only an average of the many possible
computations below our (first person plural) substitution level.
OK?
Bruno
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Fabric of Alternate Reality" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to foar+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to f...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/foar.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-
l...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-
l...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
